P-38

[EVZ]

The Lightning was expensive because it was very complex, and required special fixturing and close tolerance assembly. Steve Hinton once said it was one of the most elegant and exotic designs of the era.

The P-38 is a very interesting aircraft, it's history isn't really well known ... Howard Hughes began designing a plane in the mid 30s that would incorporate modern developments, some of which were "anticipated" but not yet realised. Eventually it became the D-2 and was envisioned as a Long Range Fighter / Bomber with internal bomb bays. Hughes built it in secret with his own $$$. He always maintained and later testified before congress that the P-38 was STOLEN & COPIED from his design and adapted for production as a fighter with existing technology by Lockheed. The D-2 never saw service, Huges -REFUSED- to sell it to the Army. But it later served as the starting point for the Hughes XF-11, a post war, high altitude reconnaissance aircraft that eventually led to the U-2 and SR-71 spy planes ...

Both the D-2 and the XF-11 -LOOK- like scaled up P-38s and are often mistaken as an evolution of the Lockheed fighter. 

[Captain Virgil Hilts]

Question, weren't the lend lease versions fitted with props going in the same direction?

There were no "lend lease" versions. The British wanted P-38's, without counter rotating engines and propellers, and without turbochargers. Lockheed engineers did not want to accept the order, they knew the P-38 would not perform in that configuration, but they did accept the order. The British, who actually named the P-38 "Lightning", did not like what they asked for, of course. Lockheed let them out of the contract, and the USAAC bought the planes for use as trainers.

[Captain Virgil Hilts]

The P-38 is a very interesting aircraft, it's history isn't really well known ... Howard Hughes began designing a plane in the mid 30s that would incorporate modern developments, some of which were "anticipated" but not yet realised. Eventually it became the D-2 and was envisioned as a Long Range Fighter / Bomber with internal bomb bays. Hughes built it in secret with his own $$$. He always maintained and later testified before congress that the P-38 was STOLEN & COPIED from his design and adapted for production as a fighter with existing technology by Lockheed. The D-2 never saw service, Huges -REFUSED- to sell it to the Army. But it later served as the starting point for the Hughes XF-11, a post war, high altitude reconnaissance aircraft that eventually led to the U-2 and SR-71 spy planes ...

Both the D-2 and the XF-11 -LOOK- like scaled up P-38s and are often mistaken as an evolution of the Lockheed fighter. 

The history of the P-38 is actually quite well known, and most factually documented by former Lockheed engineer Warren Bodie, in his book, "The Lockheed P-38 Lightning". No, Clarence E. "Kelly" Johnson did not steal any part of the P-38 design from Howard Hughes. I seriously doubt the man who led the team that gave us the P-38, the F-104, the U-2, and the SR-71 needed to steal designs from anyone.

[Tyrannis]

The history of the P-38 is actually quite well known, and most factually documented by former Lockheed engineer Warren Bodie, in his book, "The Lockheed P-38 Lightning". No, Clarence E. "Kelly" Johnson did not steal any part of the P-38 design from Howard Hughes. I seriously doubt the man who led the team that gave us the P-38, the F-104, the U-2, and the SR-71 needed to steal designs from anyone.

But think about it, if he truly DID steal the designs for the p38, he wouldn't just come out publicly and say it in his book would he? that would pretty much discredit him from the achievements of the p38.
One of those things we may never know.
Ether way, im just glad it was built.

[nrshida]

Interestingly the Westland Whirlwind prototype had counter rotating props but that feature was dropped from the production versions even though the Rolls Royce Peregrine engine's output could be easily handed.

[FLS]

But think about it, if he truly DID steal the designs for the p38, he wouldn't just come out publicly and say it in his book would he? that would pretty much discredit him from the achievements of the p38.
One of those things we may never know.
Ether way, im just glad it was built.

You may never be sure, but I feel comfortable crediting Mr Johnson with the airplanes and Mr Bodie with the book.

[PR3D4TOR]

I can understand Hughes' position...



That's the XF-11. Basically an upscaled D-2.

[Ack-Ack]

There are some that say Hughes was influenced by the P-38, not the other way around.  Bob Gross, the head of Lockheed at the time was a good friend and confidant of Hughes and both held regular discussions on aviation design.  Also, the P-38 started development in 1937, Hughes didn't start to design the D-2 until 1939, after the P-38 was accepted and test flights already started.  The first flight of the D-2 wasn't until summer of 1943 that the D-2 prototype was flown in secret, some 3.5 years after the first test flight of the P-38.

The time line just doesn't hold weight for the notion that the idea of the P-38 was stolen from Hughes' D-2 design, if anything it lends credence to the opposite argument that the D-2 was influenced by the P-38, as the D-2 was seen really nothing more as an upscaled P-38.

Supposedly the only known photo (bottom picture) of the D-2 sitting prior to test flight.


ack-ack
 

[Baumer]

Johnson favored the twin tail design going back to 1933 with his work on the Lockheed Electra while he was still at the University of Michigan. So I seriously doubt he stole the idea from Hughes.

[TwinBoom]

P-38's Suck

[EVZ]

Also, the P-38 started development in 1937, Hughes didn't start to design the D-2 until 1939, ... The time line just doesn't hold weight for the notion that the idea of the P-38 was stolen from Hughes' D-2 design,

Supposedly the only known photo (bottom picture) of the D-2 sitting prior to test flight.
(Image removed from quote.)

Hughes began putting his idea on paper in 1931 or 32 I think, he was inspired according to one OLD Hughes Aircraft engineer while watching a close formation flight demonstration (overlapping wings) of (PT22?) trainers. And possibly? by the twin booms of the original Wright Flyers which impressed him with their structural strength to weight ratio. He had a LOT of associates at lockheed and was known for his open and detailed discussion of ideas with both engineers and mechanics. CONSTRUCTION of the D-2 is what started in 1939, not design. The 1st prototype never flew, Hughes scrapped it and started over.

There are at least several photos that survive of the D-2 under construction. The idea that Hughes copied the p-38 originated with some of the congressmen who insisted he be investigated after he refused to tell them all his "secrets." As I said  this isn't  well known - officially approved "History."

[EVZ]

Ether way, im just glad it was built.

Amen! Hughes wasn't interested in giving the army what it wanted and needed ... If his design was co-opted, it was likely done for the good of the country and whoever made that judgment call has been vindicated completely by the outstanding accomplishments of the aircraft and it's timely availability when the country needed it ...

[Infidelz]

But think about it, if he truly DID steal the designs for the p38, he wouldn't just come out publicly and say it in his book would he? that would pretty much discredit him from the achievements of the p38.
One of those things we may never know.
Ether way, im just glad it was built.

Its just plain wrong to imply things this way. You should apologize.

Infidelz.

[PR3D4TOR]

Perhaps they were both influenced by another design...





The Fokker G.I was introduced to the world at the Paris Air Show in November 1936.

[2bighorn]

Perhaps they were both influenced by another design...


(Image removed from quote.)


The Fokker G.I was introduced to the world at the Paris Air Show in November 1936.

Twin boom concept was more common than people think. Fokker G.I was nothing new.

Before WWII, many manufacturer were experimenting with twin boom designs, some go back to WWI, among them Albatros, Blériot, Arado, Blohm & Voss, Curtiss, Fokker, Kalinin, Saab, Savoia-Marchetti, Sikorsky, Vultee, Weymann, to name just a few.

I'm pretty sure neither Hughes nor Lockheed copied each other's design.