To make the PBY usefull

[SpencAce]

Why?  It would be giving it historical capability that it did not have.

In addition, even with this, you'd be better off using a P-47N, P-51, Ta152 or Mosquito to search for carriers.

but they didn't do that, the pby did

[EVZ]

Funny, given that a British PBY found the Bismark in 1941 after she shook her RN shadowers.

These are pre(USA)war Lend-Lease aircraft you are mentioning. Take a look at all the British contracts CANCELLED after Pearl Harbor. You seem to have a definitve problem with staying in context.

[Seanaldinho]

These are pre(USA)war Lend-Lease aircraft you are mentioning. Take a look at all the British contracts CANCELLED after Pearl Harbor. You seem to have a definitve problem with staying in context.

The war wasnt based off of when the US joined. So whether or not they were used pre-US entrance should not matter.

[Ack-Ack]

The British used anything and everything for ASW patrol ... They wanted Catalinas BAD, but didn't recieve any until the pacific war was stabilized. They may have gotten a FEW early 17-Fs and I think we gave them some early 24s to use as STAFF TRANSPORTS, as a diplomatic "Gesture." Most of the US BOMBERS placed at their disposal were tired and outdated aircraft that had been replaced by newer models. This isn't really a significant factor ... Any more straws you want to grasp at?

The British and Commonwealth countries were operating the Catalina long before we entered into the war, the Dutch also operated Catalinas extensively prior to and at the start of the war. 


As noted, the British Coastal Command operated B-24s in the North Atlantic in early 1941 and only a portion of the Liberator I that the British received in the spring of 1941 were used as long range transports over the Atlantic and those were designated LB-30A, the remainder went to Coastal Command to be used in the anti-maritime/ASW/patrol role. 

Like the PBY, crews in bombers like the B-17 and B-24 also had excellent views and with their long range capabilities and able to carry ordnance made them ideal planes for anti-maritime/shipping patrols and they weren't limited to mostly night operations like the PBY was.

ack-ack

[AKP]

... The Japanese may at times have tasked Bettys as Patrol Bombers (in a pinch) ... The US bombers were NOT used in this role until their production outpaced the demand for them as strategic bombers over Germany (fairly LATE in the war) ... Even then they were used more as ASW convoy escorts than anything else. Standard Issue heavy bombers were NOT equipped as Patrol planes and their crews were not trained for that mission. The CATALINA was the plane that SERVED in the time of need and accomplished great things.

Sorry... but the B-24 was in use as early as 1941 by Great Britain, and by 1942 by the USAAF and the USN / USMC (as the PB4Y-1) in anti submarine and anti shipping roles... and in substantial numbers.  Navy Liberators were also eventually equipped with air-to-surface radar to allow them to maximize their effectiveness.  Over 900 (depending on which source you use) PB4Y-1's were produced and used in this role throughout the war.  In 1942 the Navy took over all maritime patrol operations using the PB4Y-1, The PBJ-1 (B-25) , as well as the PBY.

These crews were trained exactly for the jobs they did... maritime patrol.  They were not "strategic heavy bomber" crews.  They did not train that way... they did not fly that way.  While they did serve as ASW convoy escorts, they were primarily used for maritime interdiction... seeking out and destroying enemy shipping... in BOTH the Pacific and European theatres.  And they did it quite well.

It is a fact that far more Catalina's were produced and used as a Patrol Bomber than both the Liberators and Mitchells combined.  But what is not factual at all is that the heavy and medium bombers were not "used in this role until their production outpaced the demand for them as strategic bombers over Germany (fairly LATE in the war)"... on the contrary... they served from the beginning... and served very very well at it.

The primary advantage the Catalina had over the Liberators and Mitchells, was its ability to land on the water.  This made it vital in search and rescue operations as well as its anti shipping role.  That, and it most likely cost less to produce and operate.

[Tom5572]

My thinking on this was to make the PBY something otber than a hanger queen which she would be if she does not have an ability not afforded to other a/c.

[Karnak]

My thinking on this was to make the PBY something otber than a hanger queen which she would be if she does not have an ability not afforded to other a/c.

If we already had the PBY you'd have a point.  In this case the easiest solution to keep the PBY from being a hangar queen is to simply not add it until a real role for it exists.

[EVZ]

But what is not factual at all is that the heavy and medium bombers were not "used in this role until their production outpaced the demand for them as strategic bombers over Germany (fairly LATE in the war)"... on the contrary... they served from the beginning... and served very very well at it.

Ok .... Guilty ... I suppose ... I said -US BOMBERS- as a reference to -US FORCES- which DID NOT ENTER THE WAR until pearl harbor ... This is supposed to provide CONTEXT for the statements and material in the rest of the posting ... Generally that's sufficient for anyone without a chip on their shoulder or an axe to grind. If it was misunderstood? Mea Culpa ...

I'm sure everyone is aware of the LEND LEASE act and the materials that were provided to Great Britian prior to the US entry into the war (at which time pending contracts were mostly cancelled). Many probably also know that it was war dept policy to dispose of most "expended" weapons and planes by turning them over to allied countrys. PB4Ys were not -PRODUCED- they were converted from regular production aircraft when SUPPLY exceeded DEMAND. War dept memos are very specific about it ... NOTHING was allowed to interfere with the strategic bombing program.

What you are refering to as maritime patrol was plain and simple ASW and Convoy Escort. I'd have to check the details regarding Crews and Training for ASW patrols. I do know that initially ARMY crews were used in the heavy bombers and Naval Pilots were sent to the ARMY schools as the navy had no teachers or facilitys ... MANY ASW crews were composed of experienced personel who had completed combat tours in strategic bombers. Their training consisted of a short class in submarine ID and standard aircraft familiarity updates. I'm not sure WHAT enemy shipping you think they were doing S&D missions on ??? Since virtually NONE existed beyond enemy controlled airspace.

[EVZ]

The war wasnt based off of when the US joined. So whether or not they were used pre-US entrance should not matter.

I agree ... it doesn't matter ... it's of virtually no significance ... Congrats you have managed to _object_ to a contextual correction. There seem to be a few people posting in this forum who specialize in Hi-jacking threads without any seeming point or purpose other than disruption.

The US joining the war is a significant point with regard to the avilability of aircraft and the initiaion of strategic programs related to aircraft production. Inre: Patrol Bombers ... The british had been lobbying the US to make specialized aircraft avilable under lend-lease and had recieved a few Catalinas. They wanted CONVOY ESCORTS and the Catalina wasn't suited (not enough ord). The B-24 was in limited production and a small number (10? 12?) were given to the Brits earmarked as STAFF TRANSPORTS ... So the brits armed a few of them and used them as they pleased ... NOT a particularly Significant fact ... When the US entered the WAR ... Contracts for more CATS were cancelled. The PB4Y-1 program was soon initiated. The plane only came into existance because the navy agreed to give the army a facility the army wanted for B-29 development & production. "The initial PB4Y-1s were essentially B-24Ds delivered to the Navy with very little change and assigned Navy Bureau of Aeronautics serial numbers. They were drawn from a variety of B-24D block numbers." The PB4Y-1 did not begin service (USN ONLY) until late 1942. 13 U-boats were sunk by PB4Y-1s during World War 2, we lost 33 PB4Y-1s. NONE of this is of any significance to the consideration of the Catlina in AH. But mention the CATALINA and some people feel they MUST discredit it and lobby for another BIG BOMBER with LOTS of GUNS & BOMBS ... OK?
 

[AKP]

What you are refering to as maritime patrol was plain and simple ASW and Convoy Escort. I'd have to check the details regarding Crews and Training for ASW patrols. I do know that initially ARMY crews were used in the heavy bombers and Naval Pilots were sent to the ARMY schools as the navy had no teachers or facilitys ... MANY ASW crews were composed of experienced personel who had completed combat tours in strategic bombers. Their training consisted of a short class in submarine ID and standard aircraft familiarity updates. I'm not sure WHAT enemy shipping you think they were doing S&D missions on ??? Since virtually NONE existed beyond enemy controlled airspace.

Given your condescending attitude in your responses to everyone here, you must be a complete expert on this topic.  I dont have the time, nor the desire to point you to reference material or scan pages from the books that I possess to make a vain attempt to change your mind either.  Have a nice day.  

[EVZ]

You must be a complete expert on this topic.  I dont have the time, nor the desire to point you to reference material or scan pages

Expertise isn't required, a general knowledge and access to a web browser suffices ... it helps if you comprehend context. Neither is  -ATTITUDE- , Sorry, I can't compensate for anyone else's inferiority complex. I will confess to a disappointment with the disruptive components allowed in these threads ... Spoiled by USENET I guess.

As I mentioned when I originally responded on this topic ... I think using the existing Radar Circle as a CV detection point for a PBY Scout in the game is a good idea. WHAT DO YOU THINK? I don't think sidelining  discussion of such possibilities because they don't suit disruptive elements is a good idea at all. WHAT DO YOU THINK? Not real sure how this got turned into an argument about pre lend lease ASW or -Maritime Patrol-,  I don't THINK I started it.

[Butcher]

Given your condescending attitude in your responses to everyone here, you must be a complete expert on this topic.  I dont have the time, nor the desire to point you to reference material or scan pages from the books that I possess to make a vain attempt to change your mind either.  Have a nice day.  

Wikipedia is a wealth of info....... don't kill me AKAK!

[AKP]

Wikipedia is a wealth of info....... don't kill me AKAK!