A tale of two spins

[cactuskooler]

I too wasn't able to recover from a right-hand spin, but had no trouble with a left-hand spin.

Here's what Lockheed had to say.

[Ack-Ack]

At least in the P-38J, there is no issues with recovering from a stall induced spin to the right side.

ack-ack

[TequilaChaser]

Very Nice, cactuskooler!.......  thanks for sharing with us.....

At least in the P-38J, there is no issues with recovering from a stall induced spin to the right side.

ack-ack

heya ack-ack,  what is your thoughts on the P-38L........ about recovering from a stall induced spin to the right side?   

cheers

TC

[Ardy123]

1) incorrect.  Gliders Stall and spin with no help from engine torque.  Remember a wing can be put into a stalled condition at any airspeed.  Dynamic  stalles are a good example.

2)  incorrect,.  again Gliders Stall and spin with no engine.

3)Correct.  if you stall just one wing and the other continues to generate lift, the aircraft rolls,

A "stall" occurs as a result of one of two events:

1. The wings can not support the load of the weight being carried.
2. The horizontal tail can not provide the pitching authority needed to support the wing loading (tail stall)
3. 1 and 2 have to do with an aircraft that has exceeded its critical angle of attack.

My posts are making the assumption the pilot is not inducing a wingtip stall... but rather just pointing the nose up and running out of energy (ie the entire wing stalls). That being said, also, in AH arenas, there is no wind, so what forces would make one wing stall before another in a glider given the above assumptions?

Also, just out of curiosity, how does one induce a tail stall (ie how does once get the tail at a different angle of attack than the wings)?  or will the point of aoa where the tail stalls be different than the wings?

[Delirium]

I had the same results at Traveler with the P38L; recovered without difficulty left and right required differential throttle control to recover.

I tried it in the J and I had no problem either way... I wonder if the drag on the christmas tree rocket rails on the L isn't the same on both sides?

[Badboy]

Normal recovery from a spin in either direction should be possible in the P38, it appears as though it is not possible with in the game.

Hi Traveler,

I have been testing the P-38L in the same configuration you describe above. But I am not experiencing the same difficulty recovering that you and others have described, I can recovery the right hand spin fairly easily using the techniques described by TC earlier. Infact reading cactuskooler's post I notice that my P-38L behaves exactly as described in that document, even to the extent that when I attempted a spin recovery starting at 3k and pulled up a little too sharply after getting out of the spin, I stalled again and span off to the left exactly as described in step 7.   

One thing I notice when I watch your film is that your control commands appear to have no visible effect on the aircraft at all. In contrast to that, when my aircraft is in a spin I see distinct visual cues in response to my control commands. This leads me to think that it might be worth checking your joystick set up, just in case it is a control authority issue.

Just in case it makes any difference, I have all of my control curves flat lined against the top edge so that I get a full and rapid control response with no damping. Give that a try and see if it makes any difference.

Meanwhile I'll do some more tests, but at this point I have not been able to duplicate your unrecoverable spin.

Hope that helps...

Badboy

[Ack-Ack]

Very Nice, cactuskooler!.......  thanks for sharing with us.....

heya ack-ack,  what is your thoughts on the P-38L........ about recovering from a stall induced spin to the right side?   

cheers

TC

I tried offline and I couldn't reproduce the right side stall induced spin that was unrecoverable.  Each time I was able to recover within a turn without having to use differential throttle control.

ack-ack

[Traveler]

My posts are making the assumption the pilot is not inducing a wingtip stall... but rather just pointing the nose up and running out of energy (ie the entire wing stalls). That being said, also, in AH arenas, there is no wind, so what forces would make one wing stall before another in a glider given the above assumptions?

Also, just out of curiosity, how does one induce a tail stall (ie how does once get the tail at a different angle of attack than the wings)?  or will the point of aoa where the tail stalls be different than the wings?

There is always Relative Wind.  That is the air mass striking the leading edge of the wing as a result of the aircraft moving forward either as a result of thrust or gravity as in a glide.

You need to go on the internet, look up Aviation Stall and Stall Spin and do some reading.   Also, keep in mind that the aircraft designers , the engineers that design wings design the wing so that it does not stall at the same time.    Most wings stall at the inside root with the ailerons remaining effective after the inner and outer portions of the wing have stalled.

Look up Relative Wind, Angle of Attack, Wing Cord and the three Axes of an aircraft related to center of gravity.

The tail services all of them, the vertical tail and ruder is for Yaw.  The elevator is for pitch control and the horizontal stabilizer, that little wing on the tail does not generate lift, but rather generates a downward force. 

[Traveler]

I had the same results at Traveler with the P38L; recovered without difficulty left and right required differential throttle control to recover.

I tried it in the J and I had no problem either way... I wonder if the drag on the christmas tree rocket rails on the L isn't the same on both sides?

I also did the test without rockets and the result was the same, can't stop the spin to the right using ruder alone.

[Traveler]

Hi Traveler,

I have been testing the P-38L in the same configuration you describe above. But I am not experiencing the same difficulty recovering that you and others have described, I can recovery the right hand spin fairly easily using the techniques described by TC earlier. Infact reading cactuskooler's post I notice that my P-38L behaves exactly as described in that document, even to the extent that when I attempted a spin recovery starting at 3k and pulled up a little too sharply after getting out of the spin, I stalled again and span off to the left exactly as described in step 7.   

One thing I notice when I watch your film is that your control commands appear to have no visible effect on the aircraft at all. In contrast to that, when my aircraft is in a spin I see distinct visual cues in response to my control commands. This leads me to think that it might be worth checking your joystick set up, just in case it is a control authority issue.

Just in case it makes any difference, I have all of my control curves flat lined against the top edge so that I get a full and rapid control response with no damping. Give that a try and see if it makes any difference.

Meanwhile I'll do some more tests, but at this point I have not been able to duplicate your unrecoverable spin.

Hope that helps...

Badboy

I understand that you can use power on the right engine to stop the spin to the right, however, my point is that you should not have to.  The ruder should be all that is needed to stop the spin.  I would think that AH might want to look at the model.

If you want to duplicate the test, don’t use power to recover from the spin.  Do as the pilot manual for the P38 instructs and use rudder to stop the spin.  Keep in mind that no power is needed to recover from a stall spin.  Gliders do it every day.   

[Traveler]

I tried offline and I couldn't reproduce the right side stall induced spin that was unrecoverable.  Each time I was able to recover within a turn without having to use differential throttle control.

ack-ack

My guess would be that you were not in a Stall/spin but rather had entered a steep sprial which many people confuse with a spin.  The wing is never really stalled.  Vipers stall to the right file, his first attempt was a steep sprial .

[RealDeal]

At least in the P-38J, there is no issues with recovering from a stall induced spin to the right side.

ack-ack

Stall induced spin? LOL.
All spins occur as a result of an aggrivated stall where one wing is stalled more then other.

[Ardy123]

There is always Relative Wind.

If the glider is stalling out due to the conditions/assumptions I described above, it would be equal on both wings, there is no reason for one wing to be moving faster than the other.

Most wings stall at the inside root with the ailerons remaining effective after the inner and outer portions of the wing have stalled.

understood, but given the conditions/assumptions I described above, the stall at the wing roots would be at the same time.

The tail services all of them, the vertical tail and ruder is for Yaw.  The elevator is for pitch control and the horizontal stabilizer, that little wing on the tail does not generate lift, but rather generates a downward force.  

I hope the obviousness of this post wasn't intended to be condescending (without any vocal or facial ques or knowing you, I can't tell). I'm sorry if I'm bothering you with questions, good day.

[Traveler]

If the glider is stalling out due to the conditions/assumptions I described above, it would be equal on both wings, there is no reason for one wing to be moving faster than the other.

understood, but given the conditions/assumptions I described above, the stall at the wing roots would be at the same time.


I hope the obviousness of this post wasn't intended to be condescending (without any vocal or facial ques or knowing you, I can't tell). I'm sorry if I'm bothering you with questions, good day.

I don't mind answering your questions, however the first statement you made indicated to me that you lack a firm understanding of what a stall is.

My posts are making the assumption the pilot is not inducing a wingtip stall... but rather just pointing the nose up and running out of energy (ie the entire wing stalls)

a wing stalls based on an excessive Angle of Attack to the Relative Wind.   That’s why I suggested that you spend 20 minutes on the internet reading any one of the many articles on Aviation Stall Spin.  Read about wing design and how they engineer into the wing the inability for the wing to stall.  Once you understand that the wing is designed so that the entire wing does not stall at the exact same time, you will understand why your statement demonstrates a lack of basic understanding of the stall.

[Ack-Ack]

Stall induced spin? LOL.
All spins occur as a result of an aggrivated stall where one wing is stalled more then other.

I know you like to jump at the chance to hump my ankle and look like a twit, but to save yourself some embarrassment you should read the original post.

ack-ack