Why the Icon Range Change for GV's?

[Karnak]

bmwgs,

Ok then, how is 1.041% of GV kills a heavy impact?  Face it, people whine about things and the whines take on a life of their own.  Everybody just knows that the Spitfire Mk XVI dominates the game and is the most common aircraft.  Everybody just knows that Lancstuka's are slaughtering tanks.  No need to look at the actual data, its just common knowledge.  It is, however, wrong.  P-51Ds get twice as many kills per tour as the Spitfire Mk XVI and hardly any tanks die to Lancasters.  By a huge margin the Lancaster's most common GV kill is a Wirbelwind, not the vastly most killed GV the Panzer IV H.  I'd guess, but do not know, that this is due to Lancasters bombing VHs on both air fields and vehicle fields in an attempt at a capture.

Basically, remove the Wirbelwind's deaths from both totals and the Lancaster is down to something like 0.6% of GV kills.

[zippo]

You're going about it backwards.  What percentage of kills GVs made up for the Lancaster doesn't matter.  What matters is the percentage of vehicle deaths by the Lancaster, and other heavies if you like.

For example, using the last completed tour, 143, in Late War GVs suffered 193648 deaths, of which a whopping 2016 were to Lancasters, or 1.041% of vehicle kills.  Further, of those 2016 vehicle kills 826 were Wirbelwinds, a fully legitimate target in my opinion, with the second most common being the Panzer IV H distantly at 298 kills.

  True, if you look at TOTAL gv deaths, it doesn't look like much.  If you take the time to go through the stats and just look at gv deaths to aircraft by type, it becomes more significant.  Most of the guys who gv a lot just want to play tanks (they don't up wirbles to hunt tanks), and if they get killed by another gv, at least they had a chance to shoot back.
  It doesn't take as much skill to get your name in lights by bombing gv's as it does to get those kills air to air.  Yeah, if they are attacking a base, they should be fair game and expect to see the ground attack planes coming after them.  I don't understand why some people seem to spend a lot of their time hauling bombs around griefing the gv'ers who are just trying to have a tank fite. Maybe it IS just because it's easier to get kills that way.
  Anyway, I think that the icon range reduction is a good change.  Make 'em work a little harder for those tank kills.  I know it says Aces High, but they have a good tank game going on here.
  I do think the icon range should be the same for friendlies and enemy though.  Possibly a generic icon(no friend or foe indication) for gv's and turn on killshooter for the bombs (is it already on?)  Let the aircraft figure out what it is and if it's friendly.  Drop at your own risk.  

After seeing RTHolmes' post, I see a big flaw in the generic icon thing...all sides use the same equipment....nevermind.   DOOOH!
  

[RTHolmes]

that might be fair only if wirbs/ostis/m16s only see a generic icon too and have to IFF it themselves. oh and turn killshooter on for flaks vs aircraft ...

[TOMCAT21]

When were the icons changed ? I see them just fine. I see black dot in the distance and I fly right towards it. There is always going to be one way to skin a cat.

[Karnak]

 True, if you look at TOTAL gv deaths, it doesn't look like much.  If you take the time to go through the stats and just look at gv deaths to aircraft by type, it becomes more significant.  Most of the guys who gv a lot just want to play tanks (they don't up wirbles to hunt tanks), and if they get killed by another gv, at least they had a chance to shoot back.
  It doesn't take as much skill to get your name in lights by bombing gv's as it does to get those kills air to air.  Yeah, if they are attacking a base, they should be fair game and expect to see the ground attack planes coming after them.  I don't understand why some people seem to spend a lot of their time hauling bombs around griefing the gv'ers who are just trying to have a tank fite. Maybe it IS just because it's easier to get kills that way.
  Anyway, I think that the icon range reduction is a good change.  Make 'em work a little harder for those tank kills.  I know it says Aces High, but they have a good tank game going on here.
  I do think the icon range should be the same for friendlies and enemy though.  Possibly a generic icon(no friend or foe indication) for gv's and turn on killshooter for the bombs (is it already on?)  Let the aircraft figure out what it is and if it's friendly.  Drop at your own risk.  

After seeing RTHolmes' post, I see a big flaw in the generic icon thing...all sides use the same equipment....nevermind.   DOOOH!

By far the most commonly killed GV is a Panzer IV, yet the Lancaster has almost three times as many kills of Wirbelwinds as it does of Panzer IV Hs.  That is too much of a difference to be a statistical blip and has to have a cause, likely due to how both the Lancaster is used and how the Wirbelwind is used.

As to GVers just wanting to be able to have a fight without being messed with by aircraft, that goes both ways and in both cases the answer is pretty much "Suck it up, this is a combined arms game."

When were the icons changed ? I see them just fine. I see black dot in the distance and I fly right towards it. There is always going to be one way to skin a cat.

Next version.

[caldera]

When were the icons changed ? I see them just fine. I see black dot in the distance and I fly right towards it. There is always going to be one way to skin a cat.

That you see a big black dot in the distance is perhaps the issue here.  GVers claim that you don't need icons - well if everyone could see them as you do Tomcat, then it would make sense.  Years ago, I had a low end computer and GVs did indeed appear as black dots in the distance.  Right now my current system runs hi res textures and detail sliders maxed.  GVs just blend into the terrain - even at very close range.   Unless it is on a beach with no other terrain clutter, a stationary GV is very difficult to spot without an icon. 

[Tilt]

ar, a stationary GV is very difficult to spot without an icon. 

as it should be imo

[Karnak]

as it should be imo

Agreed.  My only contention is that it should be so for friendlies too.

I am sorta baffled at the GVers opposition to my proposal as it would make them even less likely to be messed with by aircraft.

[Tilt]

stop calling them GV'ers............... 

[Butcher]

stop calling them GV'ers............... 

Bomb Magnet's is a better name for it, at least until the next version - where I can't wait to see the first thread about someone being shot down by a
wirbel because the icon range was reduced.

[bmwgs]

bmwgs,

Ok then, how is 1.041% of GV kills a heavy impact?  Face it, people whine about things and the whines take on a life of their own.  Everybody just knows that the Spitfire Mk XVI dominates the game and is the most common aircraft.  Everybody just knows that Lancstuka's are slaughtering tanks.  No need to look at the actual data, its just common knowledge.  It is, however, wrong.  P-51Ds get twice as many kills per tour as the Spitfire Mk XVI and hardly any tanks die to Lancasters.  By a huge margin the Lancaster's most common GV kill is a Wirbelwind, not the vastly most killed GV the Panzer IV H.  I'd guess, but do not know, that this is due to Lancasters bombing VHs on both air fields and vehicle fields in an attempt at a capture.

Basically, remove the Wirbelwind's deaths from both totals and the Lancaster is down to something like 0.6% of GV kills.

I will stand by what I stated earlier.  Your argument has no merit when your preaching about something you do not do.  Sort of like people complaining about his game on this forum, yet they don't have an account, or have not played in years.  

Go do a few hundred GV sorties, and then I will discuss with you what impact GVs have on this game or what impact planes have on GVs.  Until then, in my opinion, you are basically blowing smoke.  

Hope your not saying I am whining, I could care less about the changes, I will adapt as I always do.  The only whining I see, is the ones that fear a change that has not even happened.

Fred

[Karnak]

bmwgs,

You don't have to spend time in something to be able to understand numbers.  There are aircraft which have much more significant impact on the GV game, such as the Il-2, A-20G and probably the B-25H, but the whines about the Lancaster are tremendously overstated.

[bmwgs]

bmwgs,

You don't have to spend time in something to be able to understand numbers.  There are aircraft which have much more significant impact on the GV game, such as the Il-2, A-20G and probably the B-25H, but the whines about the Lancaster are tremendously overstated.

Last tour GVs were 82% of the IL-2's kills compared to 42% of the Lancaster.  The IL-2, from my understanding, main purpose was ground attack, mainly armor.  The Lancaster was a high altitude heavy bombers, but still racks of 42% of it kills being GVs.

Like I said, you want to know the true effects, go GV a few hundred sorties and then come back a talk to me.

Might want to take a look at this:  http://scienceblogs.com/worldsciencefestival/2010/08/85_of_statistics_are_false_or.php

Fred

[Delirium]

I like the icon changes for the enemy tanks but dropping it down to minimal levels for flaks is a bad idea imho.

As Widewing said, it will literally increase the amount of egging I do to tanks,  since I won't be able to tell what I'm dropping my egg on until I already let the bomb go.

Enjoy! 

[AWwrgwy]

No tank in the history of the world ever shot down a plane in the air. One of my MOS's from the Army was 19D20 and we were cross trained in all positions in the M60s and M48A5 tanks. If you ever looked through the sight of the main gun you would understand why you can't shoot planes down. I do like the GV icon change good job HTC.

Conversely, military aircraft have been shot down by a single rifle bullet fired by an infantry man.

  LW tour 144....8020  total kills by heavys ( B-24, B-17, Lancaster, and B-29)  1610 of these were gv's (all types) 
  20% of the heavy's kills.  Of the Lancaster's 2661 total kills, 1094 were gv's.

  Last time I went through the stats (  to Snailman for all the work he puts in on the stats ), I got bombed about 25% of the time I upped a gv.  Best I remember, it usualy runs somewhere between 20% and 25% for all types gv losses to all type aircraft.     

Now ask yourself where are the gv's that the Lancs are bombing?

For the most part, within 3 miles of the base the bombers took off from. The same can be said for any bombing of gv's. Why single out the heavies? Because it's easier to hit with them?

My only issue is you have a few people that can't hit an aircraft with a GV flack & yet can pop an aircraft with the main gun of their tank at quite long distances. Will that part of the realism arcade gamey feel be addressed?

Define "quite a long distance".

As with a whirble, I can only hit what is flying low and directly at me, usually well within 1000 yards.

I don't think I ever up a gv expecting to land unless I never move from the concrete of the V-base, and even then....

Between getting bombed, getting shot by another gv, and driving to where it is safe to land it is an iffy proposition at best.

Looking at my stats, I really don't die from aircraft proportionally any more than I do from any other single tank, counting overall deaths to aircraft as one type, a Panther as another type, a T-34/85 another, etc.

If you don't want to "die", don't leave the hanger.



wrongway