Author Topic: Joe Paterno dead at 85  (Read 4821 times)

Offline Golfer

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Re: Joe Paterno dead at 85
« Reply #135 on: January 27, 2012, 11:25:46 AM »
What an idiotic thing to say, in addition to being a false dilema.  Nobody gets fired for reporting child rape to the police, what flipping planet do you live on.  And as if some homeless child is less deserving of protection from sexual abuse. 

What if you're wrong? I would be extremely hesitant to report to the police anything of this gravity if it's not something I witnessed personally or had some other form of proof.

You're guilty until proven innocent with stuff like that and even if you ARE innocent, you're still guilty for being accused. Would you throw someone you've worked professionally with for that long under the bus because of something an up and coming bright eyed kid says?

I'd think twice and can see how one would go through channels. Accusations like that are more dangerous and far reaching than a loaded gun in the wrong hands.  I can't say how I would react had I been in Paternos shoes since I wasn't there. I bet the "call the police immediately" crowd would have some thinking to do as well.

It's one thing to say what you'd do, it's another to actually do it when you're playing for keeps. If you can't see how Paterno did what he did, which SHOULD have been enough, then you're not looking at this objectively. I certainly can and I don't believe his own personal career or "the program" weighed into the equation nearly as much as the delicate gravity of the accusations.

Demonize those who did investigate and cover up. Those ultra melons disappeared a DA! That order doesn't come from a football coach fellas. Much bigger works at play here.

Offline grizz441

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Re: Joe Paterno dead at 85
« Reply #136 on: January 27, 2012, 11:48:48 AM »
What if you're wrong? I would be extremely hesitant to report to the police anything of this gravity if it's not something I witnessed personally or had some other form of proof.

You're guilty until proven innocent with stuff like that and even if you ARE innocent, you're still guilty for being accused. Would you throw someone you've worked professionally with for that long under the bus because of something an up and coming bright eyed kid says?

I'd think twice and can see how one would go through channels. Accusations like that are more dangerous and far reaching than a loaded gun in the wrong hands.  I can't say how I would react had I been in Paternos shoes since I wasn't there. I bet the "call the police immediately" crowd would have some thinking to do as well.

It's one thing to say what you'd do, it's another to actually do it when you're playing for keeps. If you can't see how Paterno did what he did, which SHOULD have been enough, then you're not looking at this objectively. I certainly can and I don't believe his own personal career or "the program" weighed into the equation nearly as much as the delicate gravity of the accusations.

Demonize those who did investigate and cover up. Those ultra melons disappeared a DA! That order doesn't come from a football coach fellas. Much bigger works at play here.

+1

Offline DREDIOCK

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Re: Joe Paterno dead at 85
« Reply #137 on: January 27, 2012, 12:02:29 PM »
What an idiotic thing to say, in addition to being a false dilema.  Nobody gets fired for reporting child rape to the police, what flipping planet do you live on.  And as if some homeless child is less deserving of protection from sexual abuse. 

No but people do get sued for making false accusations. Or accusations based on hearsay.  Big time coaches and colleges are particularly susceptible.
Had he reported it and the report turned out to be false. that is what he was leaving himself and the school in for.
Its not like something like this would have been kept quiet.

We all look at the situation and say he should have done this or that. Or we would have done this or that.
But. We have the benefit of hindsight knowing already how its turned out. so it quite easy for all of us to say "shoulda,coulda woulda".
But as the saying goes. "Hindsight is always 20/20"
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Offline dedalos

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Re: Joe Paterno dead at 85
« Reply #138 on: January 27, 2012, 12:48:38 PM »
It is always easy to demonize someone when they are not around, especially when there is no possible chance of hearing what they have to say about it.  Speaking ill of the deceased doesn't really make the one heaving the insults any more classy or morally  pious than the person you are speaking ill about.  Disagreeing with how things were handled is understandable but refusing to acknowledge the goods things that he did do, or saying that bad things that happen in one's career negate the good things is just plain ignorant.  Regardless of how he may involved in this scandal, refusing to acknowledge the fact that there are a lot of happy, successful, morally sound people walking around whose inspiration came from Paterno or the Penn State institution is the sign of a small, ignorant, feeble minded and uneducated individual.  These are the same people that throw all Germans that were alive during the 30's and 40's under the bus with the Nazi's.  This is not to say that one outweighs the other, but there are too many folks that are too quick to discount any of the good when something bad happens.


I always told my grandma not be upset with the Germans.  They were just following orders and most of them were good.  It was the mad man that did everything.  When they put the women and children in a church and set it on fire after they machine gunned all men over 12 (I guess if you are under 12 you can only get burned, not shot) it was the mad man doing it.  They had no responsibility them selves.  Good to see that you compare garbage to garbage though.  I am sure someone would stand up for them also explaining how the mad man did it and they just followed orders and they were good family men, blah bla bla.

So, in your example, please state the good that came out of the Germans in WWII that makes up for the the bad things the mad man made them do.  Thank you in advance.
Quote from: 2bighorn on December 15, 2010 at 03:46:18 PM
Dedalos pretty much ruined DA.

Offline VonMessa

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Re: Joe Paterno dead at 85
« Reply #139 on: January 27, 2012, 01:33:02 PM »
What if you're wrong? I would be extremely hesitant to report to the police anything of this gravity if it's not something I witnessed personally or had some other form of proof.

You're guilty until proven innocent with stuff like that and even if you ARE innocent, you're still guilty for being accused. Would you throw someone you've worked professionally with for that long under the bus because of something an up and coming bright eyed kid says?

I'd think twice and can see how one would go through channels. Accusations like that are more dangerous and far reaching than a loaded gun in the wrong hands.  I can't say how I would react had I been in Paternos shoes since I wasn't there. I bet the "call the police immediately" crowd would have some thinking to do as well.

It's one thing to say what you'd do, it's another to actually do it when you're playing for keeps. If you can't see how Paterno did what he did, which SHOULD have been enough, then you're not looking at this objectively. I certainly can and I don't believe his own personal career or "the program" weighed into the equation nearly as much as the delicate gravity of the accusations.

Demonize those who did investigate and cover up. Those ultra melons disappeared a DA! That order doesn't come from a football coach fellas. Much bigger works at play here.

No but people do get sued for making false accusations. Or accusations based on hearsay.  Big time coaches and colleges are particularly susceptible.
Had he reported it and the report turned out to be false. that is what he was leaving himself and the school in for.
Its not like something like this would have been kept quiet.

We all look at the situation and say he should have done this or that. Or we would have done this or that.
But. We have the benefit of hindsight knowing already how its turned out. so it quite easy for all of us to say "shoulda,coulda woulda".
But as the saying goes. "Hindsight is always 20/20"

The above are prime examples of why I proposed the "food for thought" question (aside from trying to see who the true drama queens are).

Anyone that wants to proclaim what they would do in a situation like that, has either never had to make a hard life decision or is a person that doesn't examine all facets and consequences of a situation before taking action, which is a dangerous way to live, at best.  For me at least, the decision to alert my superiors would have been automatic.  The decision to call the police however, would have been been something warranting some serious thought for all the reasons stated above.  Once you report it to the police, you can't take it back.  The media gets wind of it and runs like hell with it.  In this modern age where the media plays a huge role in public opinion and if you are a prominent media figure, if you are wrong, it not only affects you but it affects your wife, children, grandchildren, etc.  It is not a decision that one should make lightly, especially if you have already made your immediate superiors aware of it and were not a witness to the act, itself.  Now, by the same token, if he did indeed know with 100% certainty that this behavior was continuing and continued to do nothing, he is every bit as guilty as Sandusky.   Alas, he is gone and as the old saying goes, "Dead men don't tall no tales".  Perhaps Paterno already got his, nobody will ever know the entire truth.

It is so easy to target a large media figure like Paterno since, regardless of whether or not he was at the top of his chain of command (which he wasn't), he has become, after 60 years, the face of Penn State.  Up until now, I would wager that 99% of the people on the street, whether football fans or not, would not recognize the names of any Penn State officials but they would surely recognize the name Joe Paterno.

What I have to keep dwelling on is the guy that has gotten the least media coverage out of all this, but should be gracing an 8 x 12 with Sandusky, is McQueary.  Why is he not being crucified in the media?  I would bet that it is because it is not nearly as big of a scoop as slinging the name Joe Paterno around.  It should have ended right then and there.  That would have been an excellent exception to the think first, act second rule.  He should have beaten the guy within an inch of his life and called the cops.  Then there would have not been a need to worry about him being wrong or whether or not his superiors could have threatened him with his career if they indeed have a wish to try to sweep it under the rug.  The police would have came, it would not have been hearsay, and it would have been documented right then and there without a good chance of getting covered up.  The only problem I would have had with controlling my actions in a situation like that would have been whether or not I could have stopped beating the guy long enough to call the police.
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Offline BreakingBad

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Re: Joe Paterno dead at 85
« Reply #140 on: January 27, 2012, 01:37:34 PM »
Where did I say anything about being fired?  There are worse thing than being fired.  Also, never did I say that that homeless children should not be afforded protection.

It was a hypothetical question, never once did I advocate either choice.  It was to prove the point that what how some folks claim they would react is a complete load of crap because, until one is in that situation, one cannot know how exactly they would react and that acting without thinking, in any situation is foolish.

In addition,I prefer the term false dichotomy over false dilemma, but to each his own.  In either case you are wrong, there were not other options to choose from.  Only two, telling the police or not telling the police, which does not make it a false dilemma.

Thanks for playing   :aok

Tedious...

Regarding being fired, you says  "providing for one's family and risking a career".  That's just another way of saying losing your job, or that your job is at risk.  There is no need to hedge around the word 'fired', because the result is the same, and it is the intent in your missive.

You go on to say "for some homeless children you would probably never meet".  Rather than just say 'children' or victim, you chose to qualify it with 'homeless' and 'probably never meet'.  The implication being that a homeless child you never meet somehow has less value, or isn't worth the risk of a career.

Lastly, the false dilemma lies where you attribute a risk of career vs telling the police.  There is no risk to ones career for relaying a first hand account of a child rape to a police officer.  That would not be a lie, that would not bear false witness, nor for that matter is it even a false accusation.  (And frankly, if Paterno was fired for reporting a child rape, instead of unruly protest there would have been a lynch mob)

It is apparent to me that Paterno chose a path to protect the institution rather than that of a child victim.  I mean, why let a little shower rape get in the way of all the football fun, right?

I'm sorry if peoples' loyalties to the man or organization prevent them from seeing that.


Offline VonMessa

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Re: Joe Paterno dead at 85
« Reply #141 on: January 27, 2012, 02:27:34 PM »
I always told my grandma not be upset with the Germans.  They were just following orders and most of them were good.  It was the mad man that did everything.  When they put the women and children in a church and set it on fire after they machine gunned all men over 12 (I guess if you are under 12 you can only get burned, not shot) it was the mad man doing it.  They had no responsibility them selves.  Good to see that you compare garbage to garbage though.  I am sure someone would stand up for them also explaining how the mad man did it and they just followed orders and they were good family men, blah bla bla.

So, in your example, please state the good that came out of the Germans in WWII that makes up for the the bad things the mad man made them do.  Thank you in advance.

I'll commend you on the point that you are really good at trying to put words into other folk's mouths.  Again, an easy thing to do when taking someone out of context.  Again a perfect example of a straw man.  Instead of debunking anything that pertains to this discussion, you attack a completely different subject, make a whole paragraph out of it and make demands that I defend a position that has no bearing on the current discussion.  Good job       <golf clap>

I used that analogy as an example of an Inductive Argument and of how folks are much to quick to make judgments upon a situation that they have secondhand knowledge of, at best.  Failing to acknowledge that the good deeds that someone has done in life are completely negated by the bad things that they have done is a notion borne of ignorance.  If there are people that have benefited from good that someone has done in this world, that does not mean that once that same person (reaping the rewards of the benefits he has received) suddenly loses those benefits.  All the football players Paterno has coached do not suddenly become crappy players because of his involvement in this situation.  I also does not mean that the amount of good he has done will excuse or "even out" the bad things.  

It was simply an example of once someone screws up, lots of folks tend to discount and not acknowledge any good that that person has ever done in their life as if it magically vanished all of a sudden.  This is very ignorant and narrow-minded to think in this fashion.

But, to answer you question, I think that the autobahn and Volkswagons are pretty cool  :aok



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Offline dedalos

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Re: Joe Paterno dead at 85
« Reply #142 on: January 27, 2012, 02:40:49 PM »
I'll commend you on the point that you are really good at trying to put words into other folk's mouths.  Again, an easy thing to do when taking someone out of context.  Again a perfect example of a straw man.  Instead of debunking anything that pertains to this discussion, you attack a completely different subject, make a whole paragraph out of it and make demands that I defend a position that has no bearing on the current discussion.  Good job       <golf clap>

I used that analogy as an example of an Inductive Argument and of how folks are much to quick to make judgments upon a situation that they have secondhand knowledge of, at best.  Failing to acknowledge that the good deeds that someone has done in life are completely negated by the bad things that they have done is a notion borne of ignorance.  If there are people that have benefited from good that someone has done in this world, that does not mean that once that same person (reaping the rewards of the benefits he has received) suddenly loses those benefits.  All the football players Paterno has coached do not suddenly become crappy players because of his involvement in this situation.  I also does not mean that the amount of good he has done will excuse or "even out" the bad things.  

It was simply an example of once someone screws up, lots of folks tend to discount and not acknowledge any good that that person has ever done in their life as if it magically vanished all of a sudden.  This is very ignorant and narrow-minded to think in this fashion.

But, to answer you question, I think that the autobahn and Volkswagons are pretty cool  :aok





And now you know how bad your analogy was.  Then again, you think the autobahn outweighs the death of my uncle?  Or did I put words in your mouth again? 
I know you are probably kidding, but can you see why that analogy is bad?  Yeah, VW are cool, but millions of people dead is so bad we could have done just fine without the VWs.

Yes Joe had done some good things but the thing he did not do outweighs those.  We could have done with out his good things if one of those kids was speared.  Then again, maybe you think that he did so much good, a child molested here and there was probably worth it.

Quote from: 2bighorn on December 15, 2010 at 03:46:18 PM
Dedalos pretty much ruined DA.

Offline grizz441

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Re: Joe Paterno dead at 85
« Reply #143 on: January 27, 2012, 02:48:55 PM »
And now you know how bad your analogy was.  Then again, you think the autobahn outweighs the death of my uncle?  Or did I put words in your mouth again? 
I know you are probably kidding, but can you see why that analogy is bad?  Yeah, VW are cool, but millions of people dead is so bad we could have done just fine without the VWs.

Yes Joe had done some good things but the thing he did not do outweighs those.  We could have done with out his good things if one of those kids was speared.  Then again, maybe you think that he did so much good, a child molested here and there was probably worth it.


 :huh

Offline VonMessa

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Re: Joe Paterno dead at 85
« Reply #144 on: January 27, 2012, 02:49:58 PM »
Tedious...

Regarding being fired, you says  "providing for one's family and risking a career".  That's just another way of saying losing your job, or that your job is at risk.  There is no need to hedge around the word 'fired', because the result is the same, and it is the intent in your missive.

You go on to say "for some homeless children you would probably never meet".  Rather than just say 'children' or victim, you chose to qualify it with 'homeless' and 'probably never meet'.  The implication being that a homeless child you never meet somehow has less value, or isn't worth the risk of a career.

Lastly, the false dilemma lies where you attribute a risk of career vs telling the police.  There is no risk to ones career for relaying a first hand account of a child rape to a police officer.  That would not be a lie, that would not bear false witness, nor for that matter is it even a false accusation.  (And frankly, if Paterno was fired for reporting a child rape, instead of unruly protest there would have been a lynch mob)

It is apparent to me that Paterno chose a path to protect the institution rather than that of a child victim.  I mean, why let a little shower rape get in the way of all the football fun, right?

I'm sorry if peoples' loyalties to the man or organization prevent them from seeing that.



I will concede that using those terms may have been a bit different of what my meaning was.  It was more about bringing on Stigma from the media before finding out the whole truth  

Well, because most of them were, under the "gentile wing" of Sandusky, hence his easy access to vulnerable and easily impressionable children that would more likely than not, have anyone that they could confide in about the molestations

If you are referring to a false dilemma in the context of a fallacious argument, this would not be an example.  A false dilemma would be forcing a black or white decision upon a situation where there were other options available.  In this case, there were only two options; tell the police or not.  Unfortunately for a lot of folks, least of all the children,  he chose poorly

Now you are just being facetious, which is unbecoming of someone of your apparent intellect

I really have no loyalty to Penn State, but speaking ill of the dead is always in bad form, and coming to conclusions when the only knowledge that most casual observers have has been given them by an over bloated, sensationalist media is ludicrous.

Believe nothing you hear and only half of what you see.

When a panel of 12 or judge makes a conclusion after due-process has been followed, I will surely have my bucket of stones ready to throw.  Until such time, I refuse to have my opinion formed by cut and pasted video and audio clips that the media is trying to force-feed me.
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Offline VonMessa

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Re: Joe Paterno dead at 85
« Reply #145 on: January 27, 2012, 03:06:38 PM »
And now you know how bad your analogy was.  Then again, you think the autobahn outweighs the death of my uncle?  Or did I put words in your mouth again? 
I know you are probably kidding, but can you see why that analogy is bad?  Yeah, VW are cool, but millions of people dead is so bad we could have done just fine without the VWs.

Yes Joe had done some good things but the thing he did not do outweighs those.  We could have done with out his good things if one of those kids was speared.  Then again, maybe you think that he did so much good, a child molested here and there was probably worth it.



Perhaps it was bad and of course I was kidding, but if one focuses on the bad, one will only see the bad and vice versa.  To be serious, if humans have realized the warning signs and used the Nazi way of life as an example of what not to do, then yes some good has come of it.

Good and evil acts do not negate each other.  The good should stand on its own and not be forgotten and the bad should be used as an example to  of what not to do the next time.  If we do not learn from our mistakes we are doomed to failure.
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Offline The Jekyll

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Re: Joe Paterno dead at 85
« Reply #146 on: January 27, 2012, 09:11:18 PM »
An awful lot of mudslinging and fancy words going on here just to say Paterno was a lowlife for what he did!  :headscratch:
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Offline 321BAR

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Re: Joe Paterno dead at 85
« Reply #147 on: January 27, 2012, 09:27:12 PM »
well... this conversation spiraled out of control. :bolt:
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Offline guncrasher

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Re: Joe Paterno dead at 85
« Reply #148 on: January 28, 2012, 02:29:40 AM »
An awful lot of mudslinging and fancy words going on here just to say Paterno was a lowlife for what he did!  :headscratch:

he's not a lowlife, he screwed up for sure but calling him a lowlife is out of order.  I have no respect for the guy as I dont even know who he is nor do I care to know.  but it pisses me off that somebody that should know better didnt do more to protect kids, specially somebody in the public eye like him.  he didnt want to get involved is what really happened, understandable but not excusable.  a low life he's not but he isnt a hero either. his reputation is tarnished in the eyes of many not because of what he did but because of what he didnt do.  he did nothing wrong but he didnt do the right thing either.


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Offline TheAssi

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Re: Joe Paterno dead at 85
« Reply #149 on: June 30, 2012, 10:23:34 PM »
See Rules #2, #4, and #10
« Last Edit: July 01, 2012, 06:12:22 AM by Skuzzy »