i know military history channel is wrong alot but

[Debrody]

Skill beats quality, debrody. T-34's in 1941 still got their arses handed to them because they were incredibly stupid with their tanks, and because they were undercrewed.

True, what you think why the first offense over the Ostfront was that much successful for the Germans? Couse they were experienced and led by highly superior commanders, while the whole Soviet leadership was executed by Stalin between 1937-39. Still, technically speaking, the T34 was the worlds very best tank til the Panzer4F2 came out.

T-34 kept its edge for less than a year, the Tiger I, and Panther kept their edge for well over a year and a half, and 3 years respectivly.

Dont be dumb, bro, the Tiger was a super heavy tank in 1942 and only was produced in very small numbers (maybe like 1500 overall?? not sure)
Sure it kicked butt, but was based on a failed doctrine. Also compare the Tiger1 to the 1943 Soviet heavy tank design, the IS-2/1943, and you will see they are about equal. A one year advantage for the germans.
The Panther is an other tale, an 1942 design what arrived to the fronts in 1943. That was an awsome medium/heavy tank and highly superior to any T34. Still, keep in mind, the T34 was designed in 1940.

And saying the T-34/85 is superior to the Panzer IV H is only true if you look at it from a maintinance and production standpoint as well. Its gun is inferior (without HVAP at close range, and at long range regardless of amunition), hull armor at LOS thickness is also inferior. Purely tank vs tank, the T-34/85 is only better in turret armor and manuverability.

Panzer4H: turret front 50mm, hull front 80mm straight vertical. Its gun had 136-115-98mm penetration at 0-1-2K yards (almost equal to kilometers)
T34/85: Turret front: 90mm, hull front 47mm sloped at like 55 degrees (!) The gun had 180-120-94mm penetration using the appropiate rounds, 120-104-94mm using standard AP.

Where are we going bro? Closer than 1.5K they both could kill each other with one, at most two pings. From 2K they are about equal, mostly the aiming skill of the crew and the optics decide the fight.
Show me any documents about WW2 tanks shooting each other over 3K. Also the T34 is much faster than the Panzer4, much more suitable for offensive operations, also can knock out a Tiger from 700m with one ping.
Personally i stil would chose the panzer4, but its only my sillyness.

[Tank-Ace]

The Tiger was about 10 tons heavier than the IS-2 (the 122mm armed version), which entered service in 1944. But it was much more comfortable for the crew (comfortable crew = well-preforming crew), and had room for more ammunition. From everything I've heard, the accuracy and balistics of the KwK 36 were superior, as were its reload time and optics.


About ~1500 Tiger I and II's were produced overall, which roughly matches the number of IS2 tanks produced. The IS-1 (IS-85) which was produced and saw service in 1943 was still inferior to the Tiger, mostly because of its Zis-S-53, the same gun that armed the T-34/85.


And 47mm of armor at 55 degrees slope provides only 81mm of protection at LOS. I'm not sure what the actual protection values would be against a 75mm caliber round, so unless someone can provide a chart *cough*lusche*cough*, we'll have to go by cosine thickness.

Also, theres something wrong with either your standard AP round numbers or your HVAP round numbers, because standard AP becomes more effective than AP at somewhere around 1200m, your numbers show it becoming equal at 2000m

PzGr.40 ammunition for the KwK 40 was able to pentrate 165mm of armor at cosine thickness (143mm at 30 degrees slope).

And again, you're ignoring reload time and optics. Who wins largely depends on who hits first, and the Panzer has the advantage both in the initial shot and the follow up shot.

[MiloMorai]

That 1500 number for IS-2 is 1945 production. Before that some 2350 had been produced.

[Tank-Ace]

I can't find any sources that state ~2300 total, that don't also say that it was able to knock a Tiger II's turret off at 2300yds or that the IS3 was used against the Germans in may of 1945 (both are false).

[Squire]

The Soviets were not interested in deploying a super tank that could defeat a Tiger or Panther in a 1v1 duel. They were interested in deploying armored divisions and armored brigades in as much quantity as they could. To that end their overall strategy worked while the Germans were fatally fascinated to war's end by producing ultra expensive AFVs that left many of their fighting formations short of armor and short of motorisation. Expensive Tiger IIs just hastened their demise.  How many Marders or StGs or towed AT Guns could you make with the industrial cost of a Tiger II platoon? 

For what the vehicles cost per unit? I would give the Russians the highest marks in WW2 for bang-for-buck despite the drawbacks of some designs. A strategy of anything but creating the best weapons of war for the industrial output that they had at the time was the best course for them. That goes for the small arms, aircraft, ships, artillery, and shoe laces...as well as importing anything they could from the Western Allies to bolster it all. They had no time for waste or excess but more importantly for them they realised their wartime limitations. 

Was a JS-2 as good as a King Tiger? too sum up; fortunately for the Russians, no, it was not. It was a heavy tank they could afford to build in 1944 and deploy in meaningfull numbers (I have 3800 during the war) to be usefull to their war aims. Of course that pales in comparison to the 29,500 wartime built T-34/85s or the production totals on all the rest...

JS-3 likely did not see much action in Berlin (proving or disproving being both impossible and rather academic I think). Its usefull to remember that bragging rights about "best anything" means precious little when your capital has been overrun by enemy grenadiers. A lesson the Third Reich learned much too late. All that said I won't argue that a Tiger II was likely the most single formidable fighting tank deployed in the war in any reasonable number.

[MiloMorai]

I can't find any sources that state ~2300 total, that don't also say that it was able to knock a Tiger II's turret off at 2300yds or that the IS3 was used against the Germans in may of 1945 (both are false).

What do you mean you can't find any sources? One second using Google, http://www.wwiivehicles.com/ussr/tanks-heavy/is-2.asp

[Tank-Ace]

We're getting a ton of snow here in washington. Our power was out for almost 8hrs, and internet connection wasn't great when it was on.

wwIIvehicles wasn't loading at the time of posting.

[Rob52240]

Testbed only.