Should the Spitfire Mk.XIV be clipped?

[Karnak]

Why would the Bf109G-10 need to be perked?  The Bf109K-4 has significantly higher performance.  The top speed usually reported for the Bf109G-10 was 426mph compared to the Bf109K-4's 452mph.  Obviously that is at best altitude, but I'd expect lower altitude performance to also lag behind the Bf109K-4.

[bustr]

In the MA the G10 would have the MG151/20 which takes less skill to hit with and gives you more rounds for snap shots in furballs. The MK108 is the only reason the K4 is not perked with the spit14. I think you refered to the G10 as a K4 with a 20mm package. 120-150 rounds in the belt to spray and pray.

That would introduce balance becasue more players could fly the G10 and be successfull at it than the K4. There would be enough balance in normal MA play to counter all but the better spit14 sticks. But, I'm trusting given the expanded stable the better 109 sticks would take care of the minority of highly talented 14 drivers. At least you would see some very interesting vertical WEP contests after the mutual vertical stalls the spit8 and 16 usualy looses to the K4's WEP. God knows the 51 just hangs there at that point. The spit8/16 kinda slowMo while you watch that K4 paddle on away with that WEP.

I probably have the perks to burn for years just dieing in the spit14 but, it would surely liven up the game play freeing it to remove that neon dogpile me to death sign and reintroducing the G10. I have squadmates who would dump the K4 in a heartbeat and never look back for the G10 and a 20mm. Gonna bet thats not an isolated sentiment in the german iron camp.

[Guppy35]

A bubble canopy spit with the clipped wings would complete my world. There were probably more of them than the 163 or the ta152 in the war. Those also have brought great joy to me at times as well. Lets not argue numbers for the sake of argument, lets do for the good of the base, it will only improve the game. 

Infidelz.

Actually not the clipped wing and probably not bubble tops.  They were very very end of the war.  Do understand that the clipped XIV was mainly postwar when it was taken out of the interceptor/fighter role and used as a ground attack option as jets had taken over the interceptor-fighter role.

In WW2, the XIVs kept their full span wings as they were being used as fighters, not fighter bombers.

We have the wartime Spit XIV.  Whatever limited visibility advantage a bubble Spit might give us, would hardly be worth the modeling time with the Spits we already have.  And I'm a great fan of Spits.  The XII or Seafire III would be far better additions with the Seafire III probably first on that list even though the XII is my personal favorite.  A full span LFIXe would make more sense then a bubble top XIV in terms of scenario use etc.

I'd rather the time be spent on other birds we don't have at all then just tweaking Spits, or 109s for that matter.

[Karnak]

In the MA the G10 would have the MG151/20 which takes less skill to hit with and gives you more rounds for snap shots in furballs. The MK108 is the only reason the K4 is not perked with the spit14. I think you refered to the G10 as a K4 with a 20mm package. 120-150 rounds in the belt to spray and pray.

You misunderstood me.  I meant that AH had a Bf109K-4 that was labeled as a "Bf109G-10" so that HTC could include the 20mm guns.  The real Bf109G-10 did not perform anywhere near as well as the Bf109K-4.  If HTC were to add the Bf109G-10 back into AH it would be more like a Bf109G-14, but with the Bf109K-4's power/altitude bands.  Top speed would be about 426mph at the same altitude the Bf109K-4 does 452mph.

[bustr]

And the spit14 would not own the sky by any means in the face of a G10 even by those standards.

It would be a good matchup and possibly the source of a good rivalry. As it is the K4 being non perked has no real competition from the spit14 by being so rare in the same skys. You cannot realy get into a furball and chase a K4 down while the dogpile neon sign is lit on the spit14's kester. I doubt much is needed to reintroduce a G10 and unperk the spit14 as a side show to the overall production process. We were surprised with the P47M out of the blue.

[Butcher]

And the spit14 would not own the sky by any means in the face of a G10 even by those standards.

It would be a good matchup and possibly the source of a good rivalry. As it is the K4 being non perked has no real competition from the spit14 by being so rare in the same skys. You cannot realy get into a furball and chase a K4 down while the dogpile neon sign is lit on the spit14's kester. I doubt much is needed to reintroduce a G10 and unperk the spit14 as a side show to the overall production process. We were surprised with the P47M out of the blue.

G10 comes no where close to matching a Spit14 in the Main arena or a snapshot/FSO event. If anything the K4 would be a much lower ENY value with the Spit14 and the G10 goes to 20 eny which would make sense to me. The G-10 never "out performed" the K4, however I've seen enough Spit 14s vs K4 fights to say the Spit 14 isn't exactly a "loser" in the fight.

The stupidest part of this silly whine is both K4 and Spit 14 are equal on pretty much every level. Both should be either 5 eny or 10 and leave it at that, neither should be perked.

Neither out perform each other in any scenario to an extreme.

So why perk? Add the G-10 and put it at 20 eny.

[Karnak]

We never had the Bf109G-10 so there is no Bf109G-10 to reintroduce.  Nor would it be a match for the Spitfire Mk XIV if it were added.

As to the Bf109K-4 being rare, I can't say I agree.  I run into the things every time I play.  The point about the Spitfire Mk XIV being gang banged due to its icon and perk status is true though.

[Infidelz]

Actually yes Bubble and clipped wing..

Yes bubble and clipped wing.

yes bubble and clipped wing.

Now let us continue with the 109 discussion. oh wait, thread hijakz

Infidelz.

[Butcher]

We never had the Bf109G-10 so there is no Bf109G-10 to reintroduce.  Nor would it be a match for the Spitfire Mk XIV if it were added.

As to the Bf109K-4 being rare, I can't say I agree.  I run into the things every time I play.  The point about the Spitfire Mk XIV being gang banged due to its icon and perk status is true though.

Anything with a perk value get's Ho'd automatically or rammed, I got a nice video last night of what was said when I was zipping around in a 262.

Seems every squeaker in a 20 mile radius went bezerk on killing me heh.

[bustr]

As to the Bf109K-4 being rare, I can't say I agree. 

My apology I used a shorthand literary style which misdirected you. I will expand to a fuller construct.
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As it is the K4 being non perked has no real competition from the spit14 by being so rare in the same skys.
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The spit14 is rare in the K4 dominated skys. Due to the dogpile neon sign on the spit14, it's more bother than it's worth to burn off perks against mini hoards to play with it. So, we have never generated any real rivalrys between the K4 and spit14. To this I'm making the projection that the G10 would be a good foil to about 20K with its 20mm to the spit14 if it were unperked and more common. Any competent G14/K4 pilot would do quite well in a G10 chasing around a spit14 while being able to spray 20mm. From reading several sources the G10 looks like engine and WEP wise is a bridge between the G14 and K4 to about 20k. It was delivered with the DB 605DM, DB or DC like the K4.

Unless our G14's engine is changed with it's armament packages. The 20mm was mounted in the G14 standard low alt version's 605AM engine while the 30mm was mounted in the high altitiude G-14/U4 version's DB 605ASM. So do we have two G14 or a cluge?

Another possiblity. I keep reading that some K4 were delivered with 20mm motorkannon. How many in service flew with the 20mm?

There was this:

Prien and Rodeike 1995, p. 174.
Caldwell 1991, p. 292.

Armament of the K-4 consisted of a 30 mm (1.18 in) MK 108 engine-mounted cannon (Motorkanone) with 65 rounds, and two 13 mm (.51 in) MG 131s in the nose with 300 rpg although some K-4s were fitted with the MG 151/20 as the Motorkanone. Additional Rüstsätze, or equipment kits, such as a 300 L (80 US gal) drop tank (R III), bombs up to the size of 500 kg/1,100 lb (R I), underwing 20 mm Mauser MG 151/20 cannon gondola pods (R IV) or 21 cm (8 in) Wfr.Gr. 21 rockets (as on the Gustav models) could be carried after minimal preparations; the latter two however were rarely used by Bf 109 units at this stage of the war, but there is evidence that III./JG 26 were almost completely equipped with K-4s which were fitted with R IV. In addition there were problems with the 30 mm (1.18 in) MK 108 Motorkanone:

The 30mm cannon were extremely potent weapons, but they had a tendency to jam, and apparently all of the K-4s supplied to III./JG 26 were also equipped with 20mm-guns in the hated underwing tubs. Uffz. Georg Genth's regular aircraft was a G-10, but on occasion he flew a K-4. He preferred the G-10 as a dogfighter, as the K-4's bulky armament sharply reduced its manouevrability.

[Karnak]

In my opinion, if you replace the 30mm on the Bf109K-4 with a 20mm it is probably just superior to the Spitfire Mk XIV, largely due to higher performance on MIL power and twice as much WEP duration.

[bustr]

Then the G10 has the same engine and the K4 has the refinements in the airframe from the G10. The only difference is the gun package. Since our G14 has an obvious engine clug between the gun packages, slap a 20mm in the K4 and call it a G10 while freeing the spit14 to compete against it.

[Tank-Ace]

The stupidest part of this silly whine is both K4 and Spit 14 are equal on pretty much every level. Both should be either 5 eny or 10 and leave it at that, neither should be perked.

Neither out perform each other in any scenario to an extreme.

So guns don't matter? For the 30mm, a D600 shot is about as hard as a D1000 shot with .50's at the VERY least. D400 is probably a better comparison to .50's at D1000.

Even if the K4 DID have the 20mm, the balistics would still be inferior for both the cowl guns and the 20mm, and it would mount half as many 20mm's.

IMO: Spit 14 unperked (for a tour at least, we'll see what happens) ENY 10

109K unperked, eny 20 (leave it alone, basicly)

[Butcher]

In my opinion, if you replace the 30mm on the Bf109K-4 with a 20mm it is probably just superior to the Spitfire Mk XIV, largely due to higher performance on MIL power and twice as much WEP duration.

I would love to see a MG/151 in the K4, I would certainly fly it more often - my biggest draw back is the damn 30mm is a pain in the bellybutton to hit something with.

I generally get all my kills on close combat and snapshots and the 30mm is not a fan of either.

[Butcher]

Even if the K4 DID have the 20mm, the balistics would still be inferior for both the cowl guns and the 20mm, and it would mount half as many 20mm's.

You do realize its the same gun package as the 109G6 and G14 right? Its actually quite a very deadly gun package assuming you have any aim what so ever.

In two sorties I flew the G14 and G6, shooting down 7 and 6 on each sortie, I wouldn't even bother firing past D400 - and generally don't unless D200 or closer.