Author Topic: Dive bombing in a B-17  (Read 1471 times)

Offline Trukk

  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 639
Re: Dive bombing in a B-17
« Reply #15 on: February 04, 2012, 05:46:35 PM »
I think "Glide Bombing in a B-17" would be a more accurate description.

Offline MK-84

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2272
Re: Dive bombing in a B-17
« Reply #16 on: February 04, 2012, 05:47:45 PM »
Or diving to a lower alt to level bomb

Offline Oldman731

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 9494
Re: Dive bombing in a B-17
« Reply #17 on: February 04, 2012, 11:46:56 PM »
I don't know who said this but "it is better to catch your opponent off guard and open, then to attack while he is aware and prepared."


You see how much good this did for the Germans and Japanese in WWII.  Sucker-punching someone takes a lot of subsequent diplomatic options off the table.

- oldman

Offline Mace2004

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1528
      • TrackIR 4.0
Re: Dive bombing in a B-17
« Reply #18 on: February 05, 2012, 01:27:05 AM »
"Dive bombing" when used in a story like this is an extremely subjective term.  As others have mentioned, there are no details on dive angle or speeds but also, there is no mention at all of the most important part and that's training.  Hitting a target while dive bombing, at night, over black water, with flickering light from flares, in a four-engined bomber with no dive brakes would be no mean feat and to do so without ever having trained for it and with no suitable bombsight impossible. This isn't even to mention the problem of the bomb bay.  Even dive bombers with an externally mounted bomb had problems with the bomb hitting their props when released, that's why many of dive bombers had bomb yokes to swing them out and away from the plane but the B-17 had the bombs inside.  A release at a true dive bombing angle would likely result in them hitting the front of the bomb bay.

Another interesting clue to this is the fact that they dropped on two separate targets, another highly unlikely thing to attempt in your first ever dive bombing attempt (or any dive bombing attack for that matter).  You just don't have time to pick different targets and maneuver the plane between drops, you're more concerned about getting your bombs off and pulling out without smacking the water. Of course, these two ships could have been moored together but the general idea that they dropped on two separate ships is far more indicative of a shallow "glide bombing" tactic or even a low altitude level attack.

Overall, I strongly suspect Trukk's comment is correct, this is far more likely to be a glide bombing attack at a very much lower angle of something like 10 or 20 degrees at most rather than a true dive bombing attack at a 70 degrees. 

Mace
Golden Gryphon Guild Mercenary Force G3-MF

                                                                                          

Offline bozon

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6037
Re: Dive bombing in a B-17
« Reply #19 on: February 05, 2012, 03:42:10 AM »
Overall, I strongly suspect Trukk's comment is correct, this is far more likely to be a glide bombing attack at a very much lower angle of something like 10 or 20 degrees at most rather than a true dive bombing attack at a 70 degrees. 
At 70 degrees the bombs will not clear the door of the bomb bay.

There is also a great risk of getting the bombs spinning out of control in the transition from 0 to 300 mph wind in a few feet. The bombs rely on gravity to pull them out of the bay. At 70 degrees the gravity in the correct direction, i.e. out of the bay, is only about 35% of the drop acceleration in level flight. The bomb will spend a longer time in the turbulent and strong wind sheers regions near the exit of the bay.

i don't believe Israel ever declared war on her Arab neighbors in the 60s when she attacked them. hmm. then again they wont admit they were attacked either.
it does not matter if you declare war on a nation. a sneak attack is just a preemptive strike.
I don't know who said this but "it is better to catch your opponent off guard and open, then to attack while he is aware and prepared."
Consider the first bomb to hit the ground a "deceleration of war". Deceleration of war lost its meaning when wars stopped being a personal matter between kings and other royalties. The only decelerations made in the modern times are when a country enters a war which is already in progress - like the US in WWII. If the Japs had not foolishly decided to awaken the sleeping giant by kicking it in the balls, I am not sure that the US would have joined before the result was already decided, or at all.
Mosquito VI - twice the spitfire, four times the ENY.

Click!>> "So, you want to fly the wooden wonder" - <<click!
the almost incomplete and not entirely inaccurate guide to the AH Mosquito.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RGOWswdzGQs

Offline TheMercinary60

  • Copper Member
  • **
  • Posts: 230
Re: Dive bombing in a B-17
« Reply #20 on: February 07, 2012, 08:34:47 AM »
      I'd have to think that anyone who compares the way the Japanese did business to what the US does now isn't
much of a historian.  They screwed the pooch when they failed to deliver their diplomatic message before the attack
commenced.  You can't say that Saddam didn't get a fair warning.  You might be able to claim that Panama and
Grenada didn't though.
are you familiar with the old saying the victor writes the history books?
Formally Merc flying with the 99th Blue Lagoon Bandits
I wish people would use the wish list forum to post their brilliant ideas, and be smart enough to not post all their stupid ones.

But I am under no disillusions of my wish ever being fulfilled.

HiTech - in response to davidwales

Offline guncrasher

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 17417
Re: Dive bombing in a B-17
« Reply #21 on: February 07, 2012, 08:47:11 AM »
Maybe dive bombing heavy bombers in game are based on reality after all.

Read the rest of the story, "Dive Bombing a B-17" here.

ack-ack

I can probably find, if i was willing to do, many cases were in ww2 planes ho'd others.    hell there's lots ww2 aces that did nothing but pick and run.  formation of hundreds of allied bombers along with fighters, how is that for a horde.  didnt germany killed most of polands airforce in the ground?  vulcher's dream.  hell the stuka fighters did nothing but bomb**** as many gv's as they could.  lots of cases of fighters ramming fighters/bombers.  fighters diving on a field and crash diving their bombs.  and yes hundreds of pilots with no more than a few hours of training being sent into combat with no skills whatsoever, how is that for a dweeb.  and of course who can forget the pony diving for the deck and run back home when over flown.

and yet these things are frown upon in ah.

semp
you dont want me to ho, dont point your plane at me.

Offline Guppy35

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 20386
Re: Dive bombing in a B-17
« Reply #22 on: February 07, 2012, 09:30:11 AM »
I can probably find, if i was willing to do, many cases were in ww2 planes ho'd others.    hell there's lots ww2 aces that did nothing but pick and run.  formation of hundreds of allied bombers along with fighters, how is that for a horde.  didnt germany killed most of polands airforce in the ground?  vulcher's dream.  hell the stuka fighters did nothing but bomb**** as many gv's as they could.  lots of cases of fighters ramming fighters/bombers.  fighters diving on a field and crash diving their bombs.  and yes hundreds of pilots with no more than a few hours of training being sent into combat with no skills whatsoever, how is that for a dweeb.  and of course who can forget the pony diving for the deck and run back home when over flown.

and yet these things are frown upon in ah.

semp

Cause no one is dying and the risk is hardly comparable.
Dan/CorkyJr
8th FS "Headhunters

Offline guncrasher

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 17417
Re: Dive bombing in a B-17
« Reply #23 on: February 07, 2012, 02:24:43 PM »
Cause no one is dying and the risk is hardly comparable.

so you are saying it was rare out of the ordinary just like dive bombing in b17's was.  I am pretty sure the b17's couldnt bomb while heading straight down.


semp
you dont want me to ho, dont point your plane at me.

Offline Oldman731

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 9494
Re: Dive bombing in a B-17
« Reply #24 on: February 07, 2012, 09:59:01 PM »
so you are saying it was rare out of the ordinary just like dive bombing in b17's was.  I am pretty sure the b17's couldnt bomb while heading straight down.


No.  He's saying that just because they did it in WWII doesn't mean it shouldn't be "frown upon" in an online game.  The goals and risks here are so grossly different from those in a real war that the comparison you're making is false.  In real war you die if you lose, so that conduct which would be unsportsmanlike in a game becomes life-saving in the real world.

- oldman

Offline guncrasher

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 17417
Re: Dive bombing in a B-17
« Reply #25 on: February 08, 2012, 03:18:29 AM »

No.  He's saying that just because they did it in WWII doesn't mean it shouldn't be "frown upon" in an online game.  The goals and risks here are so grossly different from those in a real war that the comparison you're making is false.  In real war you die if you lose, so that conduct which would be unsportsmanlike in a game becomes life-saving in the real world.

- oldman

the diving that happened in ww2 is not even close to how dive bombing in buffs is done in ah.  the bombs couldnt fall out of the airplane at the steep angle that is done in ah.  hell you can even have bombs fall out while flying upside down.  would love to see an account of that happening in ww2.


semp
you dont want me to ho, dont point your plane at me.

Offline Widewing

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8801
Re: Dive bombing in a B-17
« Reply #26 on: February 11, 2012, 11:33:29 AM »
i don't believe Israel ever declared war on her Arab neighbors in the 60s when she attacked them. hmm. then again they wont admit they were attacked either.

Israel didn't have a peace agreement with Egypt, Syria or Jordan when the 1967 war began. Their was a ceasefire agreement, that was imposed on them by UN resolution 338 (IIRC), but there was no formal armistice. In short, their war of independence was never resolved. The same situation existed when Egypt and Syria initiated the attack on Israel during Yom Kippur in 1973. These nations were in continuous state of conflict with Israel from 1948, until Egypt (1979) and Jordan (formally in 1994) signed peace treaties with Israel. Syria never did....
My regards,

Widewing

YGBSM. Retired Member of Aces High Trainer Corps, Past President of the DFC, retired from flying as Tredlite.

Offline Mace2004

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1528
      • TrackIR 4.0
Re: Dive bombing in a B-17
« Reply #27 on: February 11, 2012, 12:07:41 PM »
Israel didn't have a peace agreement with Egypt, Syria or Jordan when the 1967 war began. Their was a ceasefire agreement, that was imposed on them by UN resolution 338 (IIRC), but there was no formal armistice. In short, their war of independence was never resolved.
Which is the same thing that happened in Iraq.  The 1991 Gulf War did not end in a peace treaty, just a cease-fire, and we continued to have periodic hostilities over the years until OIF ended any pretense to a cease-fire.  Also, an armistice is not a peace treaty, it's just a cease-fire signed by both sides.  We're technically still in a state of war with North Korea for instance, just not conducting active hostilities.
« Last Edit: February 11, 2012, 12:10:07 PM by Mace2004 »
Mace
Golden Gryphon Guild Mercenary Force G3-MF