Author Topic: Anyone know how to weld?  (Read 1528 times)

Offline Jayhawk

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3909
Re: Anyone know how to weld?
« Reply #30 on: February 23, 2012, 04:01:55 PM »
I did a little stick welding, I could make things stick together, but it's not very pretty.

Gave myself one heck of a sunburn on my arm once, that was stupid.  :cool:
LOOK EVERYBODY!  I GOT MY NAME IN LIGHTS!

Folks, play nice.

Offline Flench

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3104
Re: Anyone know how to weld?
« Reply #31 on: February 23, 2012, 04:07:54 PM »

Gave myself one heck of a sunburn on my arm once, that was stupid.  :cool:
Don't feel bad I did the same thing , lol . Live and learn I guess .
Army of Muppets-"Failure is impossible"-Death before dishonor
         Lead follow or get out of the way  !!

Offline cattb

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1164
Re: Anyone know how to weld?
« Reply #32 on: February 23, 2012, 04:34:48 PM »
  What he said...anyone can run a bead....I can run a bead but I'm no welder.

  And never ever weld while wearing sneakers.   It hurts when it burns through your shoe and kinda sticks there.  Still have the scars.
I had a hot-one go into my workboot. I ended up going to the doctor and was back at work 2 months later.

:Salute Easy8 EEK GUS Betty

Offline texasmom

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6078
Re: Anyone know how to weld?
« Reply #33 on: February 23, 2012, 04:50:34 PM »
Need basics, I hear a person can self teach them?

Bad idea.
<S> Easy8
<S> Mac

Offline Jayhawk

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3909
Re: Anyone know how to weld?
« Reply #34 on: February 23, 2012, 04:53:28 PM »
You can read every book on welding and still have no idea how to weld.  In my experience, it's one of those things you have to DO to learn.
LOOK EVERYBODY!  I GOT MY NAME IN LIGHTS!

Folks, play nice.

Offline texasmom

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6078
Re: Anyone know how to weld?
« Reply #35 on: February 23, 2012, 04:55:42 PM »
My son has been taking welding classes 3 hr a day for the last few years.  I went to his shop a few weeks ago. I was astonished to seethe difference between what i thought it was, and what it actually entailed.  Wow to welders (including my kid).  Scarey stuff!  Shop is not a proper place for a Mom, danger radar was on overload.
<S> Easy8
<S> Mac

Offline Flench

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3104
Re: Anyone know how to weld?
« Reply #36 on: February 23, 2012, 04:57:59 PM »
You can read every book on welding and still have no idea how to weld.  In my experience, it's one of those things you have to DO to learn.
Thats not true for me . I can weld pretty darn good and no one showed me . I went from what I was told and read and many year's doing it .
Army of Muppets-"Failure is impossible"-Death before dishonor
         Lead follow or get out of the way  !!

Offline Jayhawk

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3909
Re: Anyone know how to weld?
« Reply #37 on: February 23, 2012, 05:07:20 PM »
Thats not true for me . I can weld pretty darn good and no one showed me . I went from what I was told and read and many year's doing it .

I bet it took you a while to get good at it.  I didn't mean one couldn't teach themselves, but it actually takes doing it to learn (like most anything).  So if he wants to weld, he needs to find a welder.  Whether he has someone teach him, or practices himself, he won't be able to get a welder, sit down at his go-kart, run a practice bead and go.
LOOK EVERYBODY!  I GOT MY NAME IN LIGHTS!

Folks, play nice.

Offline Flench

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3104
Re: Anyone know how to weld?
« Reply #38 on: February 23, 2012, 05:09:32 PM »
I bet it took you a while to get good at it.  I didn't mean one couldn't teach themselves, but it actually takes doing it to learn (like most anything).  So if he wants to weld, he needs to find a welder.  Whether he has someone teach him, or practices himself, he won't be able to get a welder, sit down at his go-kart, run a practice bead and go.
I agree he need's to have someone to teach him . Save him alot of time and money in the long run .
Army of Muppets-"Failure is impossible"-Death before dishonor
         Lead follow or get out of the way  !!

Offline cattb

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1164
Re: Anyone know how to weld?
« Reply #39 on: February 23, 2012, 05:38:07 PM »
I have never done a go kart. Still may need tack bars and possibly spacers. There is nothing worse then welding someone elses poor setup or assembly thats not tacked together properly.

So building this go kart is alittle more then just welding.

I stopped welding where I work about 5 years ago because of the garbage I would run into.
:Salute Easy8 EEK GUS Betty

Offline saggs

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1250
      • www.kirksagers.com
Re: Anyone know how to weld?
« Reply #40 on: February 23, 2012, 10:04:25 PM »
Tube welding, if chromoly tube, cannot be MIG or stick welded.

O/A torch welding is optimal, but it can be TIG welded if done carefully and the welds must be normalized afterwards (by using a torch)

O/A welding tube is way cheaper than buying a TIG setup.



Why not?  Is there some guideline from the AWS or similar organization on this?

I'd always heard this, stories that MIG welded chromoly would stress fracture at the weld  quite easily, and I used to take it as gospel.   So a few years ago I decided to do my own non-scientific experiment.  I MIG welded some scrap chromoly tube (made a 90° mitered corner), without pre-heating or normalizing, just let it air cool, put it in the vise and beat it with a sledge for a good 10+ minutes, then I put a 3-4' cheater bar on it and wailed on it in both directions for several more minutes, to no effect.  Having believed what more experienced folks had told me I was honestly surprised that I could not break it.   So then I gave up breaking it and cut it in half... and everything looked fine, then I was skeptical.

Having read and learned a bit more since then, I now believe that MIG welding 4130 chromoly is perfectly fine and safe, as long as you let it air cool at a moderate temp, and don't quench it in water or oil.

Also, as better evidence I know that both Cub Crafters and Maule (possible others too)  MIG weld all their fuselages with 4130 chromoly steel.  Granted they have better control and facilities then some guy in his garage, but it must be possible and perfectly safe or the FAA would not have certified those airframes.  There are hundreds of Maules and Carbon Cubs that get beat around bush flying daily, and I've never heard of any stress fractures at the welds on them.  In fact Cub Crafters claims that their fuselages are stronger then the original Piper ones.

What's really neat is some of the new technology like "friction stir" welding, no gas, no electric arc, just friction from a tip spinning very fast under pressure.  Makes a beautiful flat weld with no filler.
« Last Edit: February 24, 2012, 12:02:06 AM by saggs »

Offline FiLtH

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6448
Re: Anyone know how to weld?
« Reply #41 on: February 23, 2012, 10:05:08 PM »
By airsoft tank, do you mean an armored vehicle, or a pressurized vessel for storage of gas?  Ive welded a little bit and got pretty good at basic stuff, but I'd never try to build a pressure tank.

~AoM~

Offline Jayhawk

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3909
Re: Anyone know how to weld?
« Reply #42 on: February 23, 2012, 11:44:25 PM »
By airsoft tank, do you mean an armored vehicle, or a pressurized vessel for storage of gas?  Ive welded a little bit and got pretty good at basic stuff, but I'd never try to build a pressure tank.

Oh yeah, second that on not building a pressure vessel.

Oh and if it's an armored tank, just put a cardboard box over your head.
LOOK EVERYBODY!  I GOT MY NAME IN LIGHTS!

Folks, play nice.

Offline homersipes

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1238
Re: Anyone know how to weld?
« Reply #43 on: February 24, 2012, 05:40:54 AM »
was building a bumper for my honda odyessey and was chipping the slag off(no safety glasses) a piece of this hot crap went into my eye.  Rubbed it real quick and it felt fine, well the next morning my eye was all red and hurt like a SOB.  The piece was embedded into my eye you could actually see it on my eyeball.  My wife and friend made me go to the doctor and he used what looked like a dremel tool with a cutting tip on it to get it out of my eye.  Ever since then I use safety glasses.

Offline VonMessa

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 11922
Re: Anyone know how to weld?
« Reply #44 on: February 24, 2012, 07:33:14 AM »
Why not?  Is there some guideline from the AWS or similar organization on this?

I'd always heard this, stories that MIG welded chromoly would stress fracture at the weld  quite easily, and I used to take it as gospel.   So a few years ago I decided to do my own non-scientific experiment.  I MIG welded some scrap chromoly tube (made a 90° mitered corner), without pre-heating or normalizing, just let it air cool, put it in the vise and beat it with a sledge for a good 10+ minutes, then I put a 3-4' cheater bar on it and wailed on it in both directions for several more minutes, to no effect.  Having believed what more experienced folks had told me I was honestly surprised that I could not break it.   So then I gave up breaking it and cut it in half... and everything looked fine, then I was skeptical.

Having read and learned a bit more since then, I now believe that MIG welding 4130 chromoly is perfectly fine and safe, as long as you let it air cool at a moderate temp, and don't quench it in water or oil.

Also, as better evidence I know that both Cub Crafters and Maule (possible others too)  MIG weld all their fuselages with 4130 chromoly steel.  Granted they have better control and facilities then some guy in his garage, but it must be possible and perfectly safe or the FAA would not have certified those airframes.  There are hundreds of Maules and Carbon Cubs that get beat around bush flying daily, and I've never heard of any stress fractures at the welds on them.  In fact Cub Crafters claims that their fuselages are stronger then the original Piper ones.

What's really neat is some of the new technology like "friction stir" welding, no gas, no electric arc, just friction from a tip spinning very fast under pressure.  Makes a beautiful flat weld with no filler.

Well, when I finish building my Bearhawk, I would like to show in my builders log that all welds were crafted properly so my DAR gives me an airworthiness certificate.  That coupled with the coin that I shelled out for my EAA class on welding leads me to believe that the pros know what they are doing.

 It is physically possible to perform MIG welds on 4130, but if the joint is cooled too quickly, it will be a brittle weld.  There is no other way about it.  It is the nature of the steel because of the carbon content.  The "41" denotes a low alloy steel containing nominally 1 percent chromium and 0.2 percent molybdenum (hence the nickname "chromoly"). The "30" denotes a carbon content of 0.30 percent.  If you heat 4130 to the point where the carbon comes to the surface and then cooled too quickly (even a drafty garage is too quickly), it develops Martensetic qualities (a crystalline structure typical of steel containing carbon that has been heat treated) the weld will become brittle.  If this happens, it has to be tempered just like tool steel or it will develop stress fractures and possibly break.  An O/A flame weld has less tendency to do this

When welding an airframe, especially the clusters where there are lots of tube joints, there is a tendency for that area to become hot enough that the joint requires normalization.  A MIG or SMAW welded airframe, if performed by a homebuilder, will not pass the DAR's inspection.  This much I know.

Having a TIG welder at home would be nice, especially considering all of the welding that I do on my Wrangler and the parts that I fab for it, but I cannot justify the cost, especially since I dumped money into a lathe and mill.  In fact, TIG welding is becoming the method of choice for homebuilt aircraft enthusiasts and when I am ready to start assembling my frame, I may consider buying one.  For now, all I that I have been welding are the steel parts for the wing assembly (control surface/flap linkage/stick, etc) which are easily done with my O/A setup.  Besides, torch welding has an almost zen-like quality about it :)  Some of the older builders swear by it.  I have seen some older welders repair construction equipment in the field with nothing more than a portable O/A torch and a coat hanger and still make the weld look like a stack of dimes  :O

As for the friction welders?  I could only wish  :pray
Braümeister und Schmutziger Hund von JG11


We are all here because we are not all there.