Author Topic: The Real Future of our World  (Read 1413 times)

Offline mthrockmor

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Re: The Real Future of our World
« Reply #45 on: March 09, 2012, 03:10:02 PM »
4deck, your observation aside there is virtually no change in sea level. The debated amount is inches, not feet. Sorry, but an old fashiong 'no go' on that one.

Boo
No poor dumb bastard wins a war by dying for his country, he wins by making the other poor, dumb, bastard die for his.
George "Blood n Guts" Patton

Offline mthrockmor

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Re: The Real Future of our World
« Reply #46 on: March 09, 2012, 04:48:05 PM »
Having followed this for a while I came across this gentleman about three years ago. This site is based out of the UK. It is manned by climatologists who, no way to sugar coat it, are honest. They note that the whole green thing is nothing but robbing from the poor and middle class and subsidize both a radical anti-industrialization agenda and well connected manufacturers.

This is the group that helped break "Climate-gate" and are often cited by experts in the debate. In any case, I'll stack their PhDs up against Al Gore, Jim Hansen and the whole lot of them. I'm not a climate expert but having been around the block on government largess...the truth will set you free.

http://thegwpf.org/

Boo

A taste:
http://thegwpf.org/science-news/5178-nasa-satellite-debunks-melting-glacier-myth.html
http://thegwpf.org/the-climate-record/5164-un-climate-scam-involves-land-grabs-in-peruvian-rainforest.html
http://thegwpf.org/images/stories/gwpf-reports/happer-the_truth_about_greenhouse_gases.pdf
http://thegwpf.org/the-observatory/2165-james-hansen-1986-within-15-years-temps-will-be-hotter-than-past-100000-years.html
...enough
« Last Edit: March 09, 2012, 04:55:34 PM by mthrockmor »
No poor dumb bastard wins a war by dying for his country, he wins by making the other poor, dumb, bastard die for his.
George "Blood n Guts" Patton

Offline Penguin

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Re: The Real Future of our World
« Reply #47 on: March 09, 2012, 06:54:43 PM »
Well, though the truth is certainly not by a show of hands, it is impressive how successful the alleged conspiracy is:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_opinion_on_climate_change

The citations, they're everywhere.

Back to the main point.  There is a controversy, yes.  Survey enough scientists and you'll find quacks eventually.  Look at the consensus on this, though.  Why would they all want to keep their mouths shut?  Any new scientists would certainly have every incentive to prove them wrong.  Look at the modelling of the atom- it has gone from just a sphere to a fruit-cake to a planet with orbits to a tiny point surrounded by things that are there and not there at the same time.  Science advances by challenging old ideas and replacing them- that's where the funding is, not defending old ideas.

On Coleman's analysis.  First, the man has a vested interest in disproving global warming.  He was clearly paid to do the interview, and would not dare to disagree with the Auto channel.  If that's not science for money, I don't know what is.  Clearly, we all need to learn more about our climate before we attempt geo-engineering, but the idea that well-connected manufacturers want to attempt de-industrialization is ludicrous.  It would be against their self-interest because no-one attracted by the prospect would ever buy their products.  It's like a Hindu selling beef and settling down to a steak dinner when he/she gets home- it's so far beyond hypocritical that it's surreal.

Furthermore, though CO2 is something produced naturally, so are arsenic and botulism.  Let's say we have a river with 10 ppm As, and we argue that since Arsenic is natural, we can add more.  So we bump it up to 50 ppm and wonder what happened to all the fish.  Likewise for botulism- it's inside us, literally in our turds, but when a septic tank goes bad we run for the hills.  It's quickly upsetting the balance that is the danger.  When you look at those swings in temperature, you know that those were natural.  However, what Coleman didn't mention was that if the warming had occurred as a natural event the hubbub wouldn't have started.  The whole problem is that the warming is not in tune with any observed cycles, and started in earnest as we burned more fossil fuels.  While there will be natural warming and cooling, think of it like thermostat that once spun freely, but now someone else is trying to crank it up.  Sure, if you really heave you can move it down, but it's much easier for it to go up.  In addition, the homogeneity of the opposition is startling- nearly all of them conservative, libertarian, or have vested interests, while those supporting the idea of global warming are very diverse- climate researchers, biologists, physicists (note I'm referring to the societies of these people and the people themselves) all of whom certainly disagree on just about everything political.  That proves that the opposition carries the burden of proof with regard to disproving conspiracy or cultural beliefs.  I'd feel the same way if it were socialists and marxists, mind you.  This comes from an incredibly well cited Wikipedia article, and I didn't use anything that wasn't cited.

Again, it is the issue of honest mistakes that lead to such disagreements.  Furthermore, don't forget that greenhouse gases kept our planet warm at night without us helping (i.e., they were at low levels) which means that even a small amount leads to big results.  As we crank out the CO2, methane (CH4), and other such gases, we upset the balance and lead to the potential for serious toejam on the part of our food supply.  As that warms the planet, we enter into a spiral.  Remember, this assumes that we keep warming like we do now for hundreds of years.  If we stop warming, then it doesn't happen.  That's the big point that I believe was missed.  Time is critical.  Wait too long and the 'heat spiral' (so to speak) becomes inevitable, but it's not too late to prevent it.  If it has slowed down (and I don't see that in the data) it is by the result of our efforts.  Don't forget India and China entering into the world stage, either.  Billions of people living like Americans do now will not lead to good effects for the climate or pollution.

-Penguin

Offline Melvin

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Re: The Real Future of our World
« Reply #48 on: March 09, 2012, 07:11:39 PM »
Make it happen.

See Rule #4

Offline Penguin

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Re: The Real Future of our World
« Reply #49 on: March 09, 2012, 07:22:01 PM »
Yes, we can prevent it, and while that was funny you're just being cynical.

-Penguin

Offline mthrockmor

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Re: The Real Future of our World
« Reply #50 on: March 09, 2012, 07:50:29 PM »
We can prevent it? Then why is the "green" agenda being dumber worldwide? What do you know that the rest of the world doesn't? This is the Keynesian hubris I mentioned on another thread.

Scientific America recently noted that clouds would offset any possible CO2 effects.

The fraud, it is the beginning of the end.

Boo
No poor dumb bastard wins a war by dying for his country, he wins by making the other poor, dumb, bastard die for his.
George "Blood n Guts" Patton

Offline DREDIOCK

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Re: The Real Future of our World
« Reply #51 on: March 09, 2012, 07:54:49 PM »
Dred, sorry but wrong, wrong and wrong.

1. Oil wells that have long since dried up are suddenly producing oil again. To this day it is only theorized how oil is create. Peak Oil theory has been almost as Malthusian as Malthusians. There are more known reserves now then at any time.
2. Maasive pollutants, the air, water and land is cleaner now then it was 100 years ago. Very true that in the 1970s Lake Erie burned. Complete change. America produces less CO2 now then we did a decade ago and it continues to drop without Obama's cap and tax scheme.
3. The "green" energy investment sector is collapsing. It was a bubble like the dot com that only existed with government subsidies.

Boo

Cept that it doesnt happen in all oil wells only some and those are pretty few. which they find have faults leading them to beleive the oil is comming from elsewhere. While there may be some natural reproduction of oil. It is not infinate. Nothing on this planet is infinate.

And why is it cleaner? Because of mandates on emissions. To use todays favorite term."green mandates."

The green sector is not collapsing. As of Jan 12th worldwide green energy investment ROSE to $260bn.
this must be what your talking about "Three U.S. solar companies including Solyndra LLC went bankrupt last year, in part because of falling prices triggered by increasing competition from Chinese manufacturers." Hardly because of green technologies failures.
Public-markets fundraising dropped from $14.2 billion in 2010 to $11.9 billion in 2011 as clean energy company shares slumped.
But
Asset finance of utility-scale renewable energy projects rose to $145.6 billion. Venture capital and private equity investment rose 4 percent to $8.9 billion

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-01-12/clean-energy-investment-rises-to-a-record-260-billion-on-solar.html
 Certain areas might fail while others are still growing. Just as has happened with every other industry. This is only normal and has happened since the innovation of using a rock as a weapon.
It would hardly be unusual for investing to rise and fall and then rise again. Seems to happen with just about everything.
Death is no easy answer
For those who wish to know
Ask those who have been before you
What fate the future holds
It ain't pretty

Offline DREDIOCK

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Re: The Real Future of our World
« Reply #52 on: March 09, 2012, 07:57:02 PM »
well as someone who lives a block from the ocean, I can see a huge difference in sea levels. When I was a kid, the jetties were about 5-8 foot above high tide. Now during high tide, some jetties are under water. Bottom line, whatever is going on with the earth, caused by us, or the sun, change is coming. Im planning on moving in the next 5 years if Im still alive.

Cheers

Assuming the ocean does rise. You mean your not just going to sit there and wait to drown?
Death is no easy answer
For those who wish to know
Ask those who have been before you
What fate the future holds
It ain't pretty

Offline ghi

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Re: The Real Future of our World
« Reply #53 on: March 09, 2012, 08:24:38 PM »
How could NASA,Esa and the Russians miss this asteroid making buzz in news this week with all the tools they have,and was discovered by spanish amateurs from backyard?  :headscratch:
 http://rt.com/news/paint-asteroid-earth-nasa-767/
 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3n5hodafM9Q&feature=youtube_gdata_player

Talking about fufure,i don't know what to believe about remote viewing, but 39% of this trained viewers see large parts of ths earth under water by june 2013,; BS conspiracy  but interesting :
 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Pk8udsan2o&feature=youtube_gdata_player
« Last Edit: March 09, 2012, 08:45:34 PM by ghi »

Offline Penguin

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Re: The Real Future of our World
« Reply #54 on: March 09, 2012, 09:43:26 PM »
We can prevent it? Then why is the "green" agenda being dumber worldwide? What do you know that the rest of the world doesn't? This is the Keynesian hubris I mentioned on another thread.

Scientific America recently noted that clouds would offset any possible CO2 effects.

The fraud, it is the beginning of the end.

Boo

Scientific America or Scientific American?  I'm not nitpicking, I'm genuinely confused about what you're talking about.  Clouds?  Clouds of what?  Acid rain?  Yeah, they pick up CO2, turn it into carbonic acid, and the rain melts the toejam out of everything and acidifies the oceans, which can only hold so much (it's not very much compared to how much we produce).  Fraud?  What fraud?  Who is committing it?  The entirety of the scientific community, which has little to gain and much to lose by incorrectly supporting the notion of climate change?  The beginning of the end of what, exactly?  Gas-guzzling cars and breezy windows?  So what if the government mandates that my car must get a certain gas mileage?  Put it this way, why would I want to pay more and get less?  Though I'm no patriot, in this case I'm cheering Uncle Sam along.

-Penguin

Offline Hannibal

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Re: The Real Future of our World
« Reply #55 on: March 09, 2012, 10:19:08 PM »

On Coleman's analysis.  First, the man has a vested interest in disproving global warming.  He was clearly paid to do the interview, and would not dare to disagree with the Auto channel.  If that's not science for money, I don't know what is. 


So the founder of The Weather Channel has a vested interest in disproving global warming because he's after that Auto Channel money, but Al Gore's just trying to save the world? There's nothing wrong with trying to get off fossil fuels and trying to pollute less, the problem comes in when people try to turn those issues into something they're not in an attempt to obtain more power. It's pretty simple, everytime some new threat comes along where the solution requires some kind of global authority you can be sure it's a con. At the end of every collectivist rainbow is a mass grave.

Offline cpxxx

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Re: The Real Future of our World
« Reply #56 on: March 10, 2012, 05:52:43 AM »
Penguin you need to realise that Wikipedia is notably pro AGW and any attempt to post something that contradicts this policy is removed. This is no secret and they don't even bother to deny it.

But seriously you really need to study the subject more before you come to a conclusion. You also need to separate the science and the hype. Forget about the conspiracy theories on both sides. Look at the science. Does it stand up? 

I'll tell you that it doesn't but it's up to you to work out.

Also the onus is not the skeptics to prove AGW is wrong. The onus is on the Pro AGW scientists to prove it's real. So far they have completly failed in this.

Offline Penguin

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Re: The Real Future of our World
« Reply #57 on: March 10, 2012, 11:48:55 AM »
So the founder of The Weather Channel has a vested interest in disproving global warming because he's after that Auto Channel money, but Al Gore's just trying to save the world? There's nothing wrong with trying to get off fossil fuels and trying to pollute less, the problem comes in when people try to turn those issues into something they're not in an attempt to obtain more power. It's pretty simple, everytime some new threat comes along where the solution requires some kind of global authority you can be sure it's a con. At the end of every collectivist rainbow is a mass grave.

Al Gore?  When did I mention Al Gore as some sort of a savior?  The man wants to make money off the global warming threat, that much is clear.  Half of An Inconvenient Truth is just self-glorification, and that makes my stomach churn.  However, you're making sweeping generalizations based on data that proves you wrong.  Look at atomic energy, it's regulated by an international body in order to prevent disasters such as Fukushima, Three Mile Island, and Chernobyl.  How does the cause of preventing global warming have anything to do with collectivism?  How did you draw the conclusion that all collectivism leads to mass graves?  Neither of these statements are supported (at least in your argument) by facts.

Penguin you need to realise that Wikipedia is notably pro AGW and any attempt to post something that contradicts this policy is removed. This is no secret and they don't even bother to deny it.

But seriously you really need to study the subject more before you come to a conclusion. You also need to separate the science and the hype. Forget about the conspiracy theories on both sides. Look at the science. Does it stand up?  

I'll tell you that it doesn't but it's up to you to work out.

Also the onus is not the skeptics to prove AGW is wrong. The onus is on the Pro AGW scientists to prove it's real. So far they have completly failed in this.

Wikipedia is based on the notion of using primary sources to provide a reliable secondary source.  A score of the world's largest scientific societies have put their weight behind global warming, so what is Wikipedia to do?  Say no?  If it did, then it would not accurately reflect the scientific consensus.  That's not bias, that's looking at the data and drawing conclusions.  If 90% of the times that I add Cesium to Water I get a gigantic explosion, then it's not biased to conclude that the cesium is reacting with the water.  If you want the individual scientific communities' statements, then here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_opinion_on_climate_change#References

Now, from what I've gathered from the opposition page on Wikipedia (there is one, and linked to the main scientific consensus page) the big catfight is not over what influences temperature, but how much greenhouse gases do.  It's about the sensitivity of the earth to greenhouse gases.  There are many factors, such as, solar activity and internal forcing.  However, the atmosphere keeps us warm at night, so greenhouse gases are a factor.  When you look at the data, you can see that the models have predicted it accurately (except for an overestimation in the thirties).  

-Penguin

Offline mthrockmor

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Re: The Real Future of our World
« Reply #58 on: March 10, 2012, 04:56:05 PM »
Dred, I'm looking for a document from the Fed Reserve bank of St Louis (?) showing investments in "green" and "renewable" droping and subsidies replacing many of these dollars. It also shows realignment of funds within firms away from "renewable"(s). As soon as I find that document I will post it.

Bring the two together, I'm not suprised that Bloomberg reports funding with an increase greater then published inflation. What it does not show is the realignment within those firms touting green. An example would be Chevy dumping the Volt, while touting replacments as "green" though clearly moving away from it.

Admitted, pretty nuanced.

Penguin, there are many internal souces to include the Global Warming Scientists themselves noting that there has been no warming for the past 15-years. Thus we are moving from "man-made global warming" to the broader "climate change." The magazine is Science Illustrated, Mar/Apr 2012 Page 15. I'm glad you asked for clarification, quoted the wrong one. You will also note that it is uncited. This magazine is one of many shills for the global warming religion. They cite "Climate scientist." The whole framework is unraveling and they are dropping little hints as to why they were never wrong.

The end of their religion is near.

One note on my own thoughts. There is a real need for smart use of the environment. And some regulations are great, such as anti-dumping, etc. What we have seen over the past three decades is the environmental movement being taken over by forces with little interest in the environment. The traditional radical-left jumped on because it was their cause for central control and redistribution of assets; the scholarly class jumped on the bandwagon because with all the concern they were guaranteed lots of research dollars; and then a collection of odd balls who fit neatly into Malthusian nigh stalkers, who really see man as a parasite that be controlled.It is this very reason that the founder of Green Peace left the movement he started to focus on real environmental concerns. Al Gore really sums this up for me.

Does every one know the Gore family history? If you don't you'll see why he gravitates.

Boo
No poor dumb bastard wins a war by dying for his country, he wins by making the other poor, dumb, bastard die for his.
George "Blood n Guts" Patton

Offline Penguin

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Re: The Real Future of our World
« Reply #59 on: March 10, 2012, 09:52:22 PM »
Dred, I'm looking for a document from the Fed Reserve bank of St Louis (?) showing investments in "green" and "renewable" droping and subsidies replacing many of these dollars. It also shows realignment of funds within firms away from "renewable"(s). As soon as I find that document I will post it.

Bring the two together, I'm not suprised that Bloomberg reports funding with an increase greater then published inflation. What it does not show is the realignment within those firms touting green. An example would be Chevy dumping the Volt, while touting replacments as "green" though clearly moving away from it.

Admitted, pretty nuanced.

Penguin, there are many internal souces to include the Global Warming Scientists themselves noting that there has been no warming for the past 15-years. Thus we are moving from "man-made global warming" to the broader "climate change." The magazine is Science Illustrated, Mar/Apr 2012 Page 15. I'm glad you asked for clarification, quoted the wrong one. You will also note that it is uncited. This magazine is one of many shills for the global warming religion. They cite "Climate scientist." The whole framework is unraveling and they are dropping little hints as to why they were never wrong.

The end of their religion is near.

One note on my own thoughts. There is a real need for smart use of the environment. And some regulations are great, such as anti-dumping, etc. What we have seen over the past three decades is the environmental movement being taken over by forces with little interest in the environment. The traditional radical-left jumped on because it was their cause for central control and redistribution of assets; the scholarly class jumped on the bandwagon because with all the concern they were guaranteed lots of research dollars; and then a collection of odd balls who fit neatly into Malthusian nigh stalkers, who really see man as a parasite that be controlled.It is this very reason that the founder of Green Peace left the movement he started to focus on real environmental concerns. Al Gore really sums this up for me.

Does every one know the Gore family history? If you don't you'll see why he gravitates.

Boo

Alright!  mthrockor's here!  This debate'll be fun! :D

Hmm, it might also be that the demand for them wasn't there or the Volt was too expensive and/or of poor quality.  That would be more likely than a collapsing conspiracy which hasn't been proven.  A more likely reason for the change is what's known as 'condom fatigue'.  It occurs when a large society must make long-term changes, such as in Africa where condoms are a recent idea.  After a while, people got tired of using condoms to prevent AIDS from spreading and their use declined.  The same applies here; global warming is old news and the zeitgeist to buy green cars from Chevy may decrease.  However, if you look at Toyota, they are cranking out Priuses and people are buying them.  It's good business for Toyota, but Priuses are seen as 'green' (they aren't, but it doesn't matter for what I'm trying to prove) and swift business indicates a continued emphasis on hybrids on the supply and demand sides.  However, you don't just get money for all your research- you get grants piecemeal at lower levels.  Groups like NASA depend on their good names for things like temperature data.  Even if they would do something like this (I doubt it- it takes guts to be a scientist) they wouldn't dare to risk it for something like this- it's too big and falsified data would be swiftly removed due to conflicts with outside sources.

The main problem with a scientific hoax is that it would require a huge cabal that couldn't support itself for long enough to pull this off.  Though big-government supporters might use global warming to get more power, you assumed that they think that it's false.  They may also know that it's true and be operating from ideals.  Laissez-faire, however, also has this problem- its advocates often come from places such as Koch industries, which has used FUD tactics on the subject of MMGW before, and has a special interest specifically in reducing environmental regulations.  We have the potential for shills on both sides, but those most actively arguing against MMGW have a far greater chance to be paid off due to their connection to groups that have an inelastic demand for loose environmental regulation, wheres scientists have only an indirect one that can only happen if the politician and scientists involved are all sufficiently and simultaneously unscrupulous.

-Penguin