Author Topic: Puffy ack needs to go after 10 years of BS  (Read 4473 times)

Offline crazyivan

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Re: Puffy ack needs to go after 10 years of BS
« Reply #45 on: March 17, 2012, 05:17:31 PM »
I love how the puffy cant hit a buff formation 5k over head. Yet same puffy can kill friendly 262 trying to stop said formation from sinking your cv, 8 sectors in no mans land. :rolleyes: Try turning your graphics all the way down and you'll see a puffy box in the sky around bombers. Notice how it doesn't come within a certain radius of the bomber as it passes thru lol. Could be wrong but thats what it looks like. :rofl
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Offline RTHolmes

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Re: Puffy ack needs to go after 10 years of BS
« Reply #46 on: March 17, 2012, 05:18:19 PM »
I want to get hit by puffy while evading it in a fighter almost never, just like RL. say 1 in 1,000,000 rounds.

not, for example, like 2 out of my first 3 sorties this tour. while evading, at 350+, at ~14k, flying in a zig/zag pattern, constantly changing my alt, flying at oblique angles to the CV group, right at the very edge of puffy range, while trying to get out of the puffy range asap.

if anyone think thats realistic, then they plainly do not understand how WWII directors worked, or the resolution of their radars, or how to interpret the RL hit stats.
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Offline Arlo

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Re: Puffy ack needs to go after 10 years of BS
« Reply #47 on: March 17, 2012, 05:28:10 PM »
I want to get hit by puffy while evading it in a fighter almost never, just like RL. say 1 in 1,000,000 rounds.

not, for example, like 2 out of my first 3 sorties this tour. while evading, at 350+, at ~14k, flying in a zig/zag pattern, constantly changing my alt, flying at oblique angles to the CV group, right at the very edge of puffy range, while trying to get out of the puffy range asap.

if anyone think thats realistic, then they plainly do not understand how WWII directors worked, or the resolution of their radars, or how to interpret the RL hit stats.

Methinks your first two sentences disqualifies you from claims of realism. It's as extreme as what you're protesting.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=37Mjbw0GBog

Offline RTHolmes

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Re: Puffy ack needs to go after 10 years of BS
« Reply #48 on: March 17, 2012, 05:34:13 PM »
your post reads as "you're wrong" with a link to a 1h documentary.

can you be more specific?

edit: for example, explain exactly how a WWII director system could track and fire accurately on a fighter as described in my 2nd para.
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Offline FLS

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Re: Puffy ack needs to go after 10 years of BS
« Reply #49 on: March 17, 2012, 06:46:54 PM »
Getting hit 2 out of 3 times this tour already doesn't indicate a problem but I'm sure it's frustrating for you. It's in the nature of random events that they will not occur regularly. When you flip a coin it doesn't alternate heads and tails. The average from 100 sorties would be a better indicator.

Offline Arlo

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Re: Puffy ack needs to go after 10 years of BS
« Reply #50 on: March 17, 2012, 07:01:54 PM »
your post reads as "you're wrong" with a link to a 1h documentary.

can you be more specific?

edit: for example, explain exactly how a WWII director system could track and fire accurately on a fighter as described in my 2nd para.

Your post reads as 'I think it should be damned near impossible for naval AAA to hit my fighter but I'm too damned lazy to actually watch historical footage without being led by the hand.'

Can do. 42:25 in. 50:15 in.

Bottom line - getting hit by flak is not a 1:1,000,000 chance. Less so if you're going in alone. This doesn't have to be a case of the entire aaa of a single ship being directed with 100% precision from a single director. It doesn't even have to be a case of individual batteries directing themselves with 50% precision. You get enough metal and explosive material in quantity around your evading fighter and the odds aren't even a 1000 to 1 in your favor. Wanna try to meet reality closer to .... well .... where it lives?

Offline RTHolmes

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Re: Puffy ack needs to go after 10 years of BS
« Reply #51 on: March 17, 2012, 08:02:34 PM »
yes absolutely, it should be nearly impossible for WWII naval AAA to hit a single fighter moving at high speed and evading (using his knowledge of how that radar and tracking computer operates) at 14,000' at the very edge of the gun's range.

I'd say watching some newsreel/propaganda footage which doesnt even mention radar, directors or their operation and effectiveness is about as lazy as you can get in terms of research. otoh when I smelt something fishy about the puffy modelling I dug out every document I could find about late war naval AAA, VT fuses etc and learnt how directors were designed and operated, likewise radar and their limitations, and of course all the available stats. I now have a pretty good idea of how it should work.

my bottom line, from the research ive done, is that if you fly on exactly the same vector for 20s there is a good chance you should get puffy ack around you. if you keep going on that vector, the chances of you taking damage rise. if you're flying towards the radar, the chances rise further.

if you do even the simplest evasives (and we are talking out of effective manual tracking range here, so no kentucky windage) there is no way you can be tracked. its just impossible given the resolution of the radar and the consequent operating delay from the director.
71 (Eagle) Squadron

What most of us want to do is simply shoot stuff and look good doing it - Chilli

Offline Noir

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Re: Puffy ack needs to go after 10 years of BS
« Reply #52 on: March 17, 2012, 09:13:45 PM »
what is sure is that the puffy is failing its primary purpose : defending the task group
now posting as SirNuke

Offline FLS

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Re: Puffy ack needs to go after 10 years of BS
« Reply #53 on: March 17, 2012, 09:55:07 PM »
[quote author=RTHolmes link=topic=330605.msg4334154#msg4334154 date=1332032554

...if you do even the simplest evasives (and we are talking out of effective manual tracking range here, so no kentucky windage) there is no way you can be tracked. its just impossible given the resolution of the radar and the consequent operating delay from the director.

[/quote]

I'm not disagreeing about the tracking but getting the occasional hit doesn't require accurate tracking and maneuvering in AH does make you less likely to get hit.

Offline Gwjr2

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Re: Puffy ack needs to go after 10 years of BS
« Reply #54 on: March 17, 2012, 11:06:47 PM »
FLS the occasional hit is fine its the 80%+ hit rate that's annoying, and it seems to me if your in a perk ride your as good as dead.

Arlo go play with the little kiddies now, since you have nothing here to add. For the record it wasn't puffy ack that kept me away it was people like you in the community. 
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Offline Arlo

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Re: Puffy ack needs to go after 10 years of BS
« Reply #55 on: March 18, 2012, 12:23:55 PM »
from the research ive done, is that if you fly on exactly the same vector for 20s there is a good chance you should get puffy ack around you. if you keep going on that vector, the chances of you taking damage rise. if you're flying towards the radar, the chances rise further.

if you do even the simplest evasives (and we are talking out of effective manual tracking range here, so no kentucky windage) there is no way you can be tracked. its just impossible given the resolution of the radar and the consequent operating delay from the director.

Well then untwist yer panties for half a second and share your intensive research instead of throwing out your 1:100,000,000 chance of getting hit by the entire complement of naval task force AAA firing at your single inbound aircraft claim and having a ball-eyed hissy fit about how unfair AHII is to you. I can stand to be corrected if you can stand to do it.  :D


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A tachymetric anti-aircraft fire control system refers to a method of generating target position, speed, direction, and rate of target range change, by computing these parameters directly from measured data.[1] The target's range, height and observed bearing data is fed into a computer which uses the measured change in range, height and bearing from successive observations of the target to compute the true range, direction, speed and rate of climb or descent of the target. The computer then calculates the required elevation and bearing of the AA guns to hit the target based upon its predicted movement.

The computers were at first entirely mechanical analog computers utilizing gears and levers to physically perform the calculations of protractors and slide rules, using moving graph charts and markers to provide an estimate of speed and position. Variation of target position over time was accomplished with constant-drive motors to run the mechanical simulation.

The term tachymetric should more properly be spelled as "tachometric"[2] which comes from the Greek "takhos" = speed, and "metric" = measure, hence tachometric, to measure speed.

An alternative, non-tachometric, gonometric [3][4] method of AA prediction is for specially trained observers to manually estimate the course and speed of the target and feed these estimates, along with the measured bearing and range data, into the AA fire control computer which then generates change of bearing rate, and change of range data, and passes it back to the observer, typically by a "follow the pointer", indicator of predicted target elevation and bearing or by remote power control of the observer's optical instruments.[5] The observer then corrects the estimate, creating a feed back loop, by comparing the observed target motion against the computer generated motion of his optical sights. When the sights stay on the target, the estimated speed, range, and change of rate data can be considered correct.[6]

An example of tachometric AA fire control would be the USN Mk 37 system. The early RN High Angle Control System (HACS) I through IV and the early Fuze Keeping Clock (FKC) were examples of non-tachometric systems.[7]

By 1940 the RN was adding a Gyro Rate Unit (GRU)[8] which fed bearing and elevation data to a Gyro Rate Unit Box computer (GRUB), which also received ranging data to then directly calculate target speed and direction, and this tachometric data was then fed directly to the HACS fire control computer, converting the HACS into a tachometric system.[9]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tachymetric_anti-aircraft_fire_control_system

http://sydney.edu.au/engineering/it/research/tr/tr223.pdf - specifically pages 10 -22 aaa (page 16 on specifically for naval aaa)

http://pwencycl.kgbudge.com/A/n/Antiaircraft.htm

http://www.history.navy.mil/library/online/antiaircraft_action_summary_wwii.htm#III (page 9)

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The above would be a good example of sharing info regarding subject matter instead of wetting ones pants and shaking a virtual fist or giving a virtual glare.  :cool:

Offline Arlo

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Re: Puffy ack needs to go after 10 years of BS
« Reply #56 on: March 18, 2012, 12:28:07 PM »
Arlo go play with the little kiddies now, since you have nothing here to add. For the record it wasn't puffy ack that kept me away it was people like you in the community. 

Huh. I've added more than you here. All I've seen from you is hurt feelings and skin thin enough to rupture at the sight of a puffy burst.  :D

Offline bj229r

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Re: Puffy ack needs to go after 10 years of BS
« Reply #57 on: March 18, 2012, 01:07:46 PM »
Unless AH puffy projectiles are radar-controlled missiles, the ones alREADY in the air oughtn't be able to change course to intersect your new heading
Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large numbers

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Offline grizz441

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Re: Puffy ack needs to go after 10 years of BS
« Reply #58 on: March 18, 2012, 01:15:14 PM »
Puffy ack only targets the closest player which creates openings for everyone else to attack. This is very unrealistic but I can live with it not targeting everyone in range.

True now after hitech fixed an epic bug a 6 months ago.

Offline RTHolmes

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Re: Puffy ack needs to go after 10 years of BS
« Reply #59 on: March 18, 2012, 03:57:19 PM »
The above would be a good example of sharing info regarding subject matter instead of wetting ones pants and shaking a virtual fist or giving a virtual glare.  :cool:

all good sources :aok

another discussion about this with some pics: http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,291851.msg3722883.html

so now you've had a look at the Mk 37 operation what do you think?
71 (Eagle) Squadron

What most of us want to do is simply shoot stuff and look good doing it - Chilli