Author Topic: compressed wing  (Read 712 times)

Offline PR3D4TOR

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Re: compressed wing
« Reply #15 on: March 18, 2012, 10:18:32 AM »
As this old P-38 driver explains, it's not about control stiffness/excessive control forces (like in the 109). It's about the controls completely losing their effectiveness. Only when you have effective control surfaces can you use trim to get out of trouble.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5J0lEHyKInw
« Last Edit: March 18, 2012, 10:21:25 AM by PR3D4TOR »
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Offline PR3D4TOR

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Re: compressed wing
« Reply #16 on: March 18, 2012, 10:41:51 AM »
Here's Brigadier General Robin Olds who got into compressibility problems in a 38 and barely managed to avoid augering, but surprisingly found a 109 on his tail.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=F8eD1XftA-E#t=311s
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Offline bozon

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Re: compressed wing
« Reply #17 on: March 18, 2012, 12:00:05 PM »
The 47's stick would flail about wildly in the cockpit often injuring the pilot.
I think you are confusing the P47 with the 51. From what I remember, pilots said that the 47's stick was hard as if stuck in cement and some P-51 pilots said that they were slapped by the stick in high speed dives.
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Offline pembquist

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Re: compressed wing
« Reply #18 on: March 18, 2012, 12:05:11 PM »
I got questions regarding trim in the game and reality.  My understanding is that in reality there are two kinds of trim, trim tabs or some some kid of jackscrew that changes the angle of the horizontal stabilizer.  In both cases the relationship between control stick position and elevator position remains the same regardless of trim, correct or no?  As regards the lift/control stick position relationship I am assuming that with trim tabs the relationship stays the same with different trims while the relationship varies with the jack screw setup as the angle of incidence of the whole setup changes, correct?  When it comes to a flight simulator with a centering spring if you had a mechanical adjustment to move the centering force forward and back you could replicate trim tab type trim by not using software trim as you would not lose the ability to fully deflect the controls fully but would be trimming away forces the way you do in a light plane, correct or no?  A mechanical system would not work in a jack screw model as the availability of full pitch up or down is only available with the change in angle of incidence which is a software feature, right?

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Offline PR3D4TOR

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Re: compressed wing
« Reply #19 on: March 18, 2012, 12:11:44 PM »
I think you are confusing the P47 with the 51. From what I remember, pilots said that the 47's stick was hard as if stuck in cement and some P-51 pilots said that they were slapped by the stick in high speed dives.


Both conditions are true. Before locking up the stick would flail about violently. The P-51 was a death-trap in an unrestricted dive compared to both the 47 and 38 and should never, ever exceed maximum dive speed.

The following was written by P-47 pilot Charles D. Mohrle:

Upon entering a vertical dive in a P-47, rapid acceleration was inevitable and, at high altitude it was exaggerated. At about 550 MPH indicated, buffeting became evident and it rapidly became severe. The control stick jerked violently in all directions and it was necessary to hold on firmly, with both hands, to manage it. Quite suddenly, the buffeting stopped and the stick became rigid - as though set in concrete. At that point, you jammed both feet hard against the rudder pedals and pulled back on the stick with all your strength - still with both hands. And you stayed that way, simply waiting for the airplane to respond.

In the vicinity of 15,000 feet, depending on atmospheric pressure, the nose of the airplane began to slowly creep toward the horizon. The rate of movement increased as altitude decreased. Level flight could be restored by 8,500 feet if you were willing to absorb the G-force punishment. In my last two dives, I pulled out gradually attaining level flight a bit below 4,000 feet with the airspeed needle still on the stop.

I'm not an engineer so cannot speak with technical competence, but I know of only one other propeller-driven airplane capable of such unrestrained dives - the P-38. And the Lightning had a tendency to "tuck under" early in the dive which made for a greater loss of altitude during the pull-out. It too, experienced buffeting.

I had a good friend who commanded a squadron in the South Pacific. They were equipped with Thunderbolts for most of his tenure. With the arrival of B-29s, their group was assigned escort duty and furnished with P-51s because the longer range of that fighter allowed them to stay with the big bombers all the way to Japan. They lost four pilots before learning that the Mustang couldn't be dived with the same impunity as the Thunderbolt. In each case, the left wing folded up and over the canopy, making escape impossible.
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Offline PR3D4TOR

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Re: compressed wing
« Reply #20 on: March 18, 2012, 12:31:28 PM »
I got questions regarding trim in the game and reality.  My understanding is that in reality there are two kinds of trim, trim tabs or some some kid of jackscrew that changes the angle of the horizontal stabilizer.  In both cases the relationship between control stick position and elevator position remains the same regardless of trim, correct or no?  As regards the lift/control stick position relationship I am assuming that with trim tabs the relationship stays the same with different trims while the relationship varies with the jack screw setup as the angle of incidence of the whole setup changes, correct?  When it comes to a flight simulator with a centering spring if you had a mechanical adjustment to move the centering force forward and back you could replicate trim tab type trim by not using software trim as you would not lose the ability to fully deflect the controls fully but would be trimming away forces the way you do in a light plane, correct or no?  A mechanical system would not work in a jack screw model as the availability of full pitch up or down is only available with the change in angle of incidence which is a software feature, right?



With a conventional trim tab setup the stick will move with changes in trim since the trim tab is moving the control surface. With a flying-tail trim setup it depends on how the stick/elevator linkage is set up mechanically, but the stick will likely remain in about the same position when trim is changed. As for the software part HiTech would have to answer...
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Offline pembquist

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Re: compressed wing
« Reply #21 on: March 18, 2012, 01:05:05 PM »
With a conventional trim tab setup the stick will move with changes in trim since the trim tab is moving the control surface. With a flying-tail trim setup it depends on how the stick/elevator linkage is set up mechanically, but the stick will likely remain in about the same position when trim is changed. As for the software part HiTech would have to answer...

OK, so thats a yes to the part about using a mechanical spring center changer as trim in a trim tab setup as long as the software models the trim tab deflecting the elevator.  I have a ms sidewinder with ff and it moves if you have auto trim off and change your angle of attack so that tells me something.
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