The Guns or the Armor?

[-raxx-]

Purely anecdotal information here but I've been trying out the P38L over the last week or two.  It has 4x.50cal and a 20mm with convergence set at 300 yards, (not that the conv makes a hell of a difference in the P38).

What I do is take the high angle deflection shots, (near HO or where I get the chance to put rounds into the front quarters of the con), with the 4x.50cal.  About 2/3 of the time something on the con breaks, (aileron, one elevator, rudder, wingtip, etc), which is just enough to give me an advantage to get behind the con and use the 20mm.

The important point to note is that I fire from long range at the deflection shot and let the con fly through the stream.  The convergence on the P38 allows me to put most of the rounds in a tight cone on the target at a distance, which I can't do with any plane that has wing mounted guns or low ammo loads.  My best P38 shot to date was a 1200 yard burst into the nose and canopy of a spitfire climbing inside me, smoking their engine.
If I tried that shot in a P51 the rounds would be spread out 4 times wider than on my plane with very little damage done to the con.  In a 109 I get inside 300-150 before firing and have to get that close because of the drop of the 30mm rounds.

I think the ammunition is modeled correctly.  The one ping deaths I can put down to Lag on the Net catching me all at once and the toughness of the planes seems right based on what I've seen .50cal do to sheet steel and armoured vehicles.  Most of all I trust Pyro, HT and all the crew at HTC are doing their damndest to recreate realistic flight and damage models based on information that sometimes is over 60 years old.

Spotcha in the Air

[Vermillion]

Personally I like it.

Yes, there are many accounts of planes coming home with hundreds of holes in them, but there are also many accounts (not just the aces) of pilots just barely touching the firing button, and the enemy plane exploding into flames, or cartwheeling out of the sky missing an important piece.

For those of you that have never seen a WWII Fighter plane without its skin, I can pretty much tell you that there is not much space in the aircraft that isn't filled with something critical.

Armor is another misleading term. We are not talking Panzer tanks here. Depending on the aircraft, we are usually talking a plate right behind the pilot, a bulletproof windscreen (should be called bullet-resistant), and maybe a small portion of the engine being protected. And most of that "armor" is effective against rifle caliber bullets, and shell fragments. Not against high velocity .50 cals and 20mm shells.

Plus from the comments of game designers in the past (WB's/AW), guns have been intentionally toned down for "good fights". Over in WB's, Hotseat is saying this constantly.

That all being said, I know its a tough change for the guys coming over from Warbirds. Especially the pilots who like to TnB, and are use to being able to be hit a few times without worry.

But basically its like the E model, once you fly a while with this gunnery model, you will get use to it and it will seem normal.

And to be honest, I think its realistic. Weapons like we fire (cannons and MG's), which were used to sink destroyers and other warhips, shouldn't have too hard a time with aluminum aircraft.

------------------
Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
"Desperately trying to figure out why Kamikaze Pilots wore helmets"

[Dinger]

Since we are tacitly or explicitly making comparisons here, I'll point some stuff out:

The important point to note is that I fire from long range at the deflection shot and let the con fly through the stream.

The d12 hit here described is not usual.  If you fly straight and level, you will run the risk of getting hit at LR.  These shots are hard to get if the con is maneuvering.
But, the fact that every bullet is modeled makes this sort of deflection shooting work -- at a high angle it's be less effective, but if the guy is at 3-400 yards, and gently edges into your stream, he's gonna get hosed.
In situations where every other bullet is modeled, I wouldn't recommend this approach -- you just don't get the density.
Beaz, the fighting is pretty much like WB, only higher off the ground, more energy loss for flying dirty or turning, less for gliding.  If you don't want to fly the way you described, don't fly the cannon hawg.  Just about the only times I've felt that my getting shot down was B$, there was one of those monstrosities flying around.
Like WB, here I've had some great dogfights, and I've had some lousy ones.  This thing has some nice features (gun loadouts, asymmetrical airfoils(?), anything to do with the view system, etc.), and ones that need work (icons and hit flashes come to mind).

[Dingy]

I too have to say I like the guns as they are.  Sure there is the occasional death where it seems a wing comes off with a single ping but whos to say the guy firing didnt have me lined up for a while?

Most of my deaths dont seem due to unreasonable gun lethality.  Seems due to unreasonably good opponents.  

-Ding

[Dingy]

 

I do know that the -1C is annoying precisely because a snapshot will kill ya.

Ok, I dont mean to beat a dead horse but comeon....the Niki has 4 20mm too and I've killed plenty of planes with a quick snapshot from those guns too.  Why doesnt anyone complain of the Niki's guns?

-Ding

[Wanker]

Hobo,

I think it's so disconcerting because you are  comparing it to WB gunnery/damage model(which  take s bit of getting used to for all of us WB guys).

That being said, I do think the guns are too strong. A snap shot will kill almost anything, even a B-17.

On the other hand, instead of the incessant tweaking of gunnery as in WB, I'd much prefer to live with what we have now, and have HTC continue to work on the strat and the addition of more to do in AH.

One thing is certain. If you get careless in AH, you're gonna die...quickly!

------------------
banana
308 (Polish) Squadron RAF "City of Cracow"
"On the whole, it is better to deserve honors and not have them than to have them and not deserve them"

[Maniac]

Beaz common over mate so we can start our gunnery crusade  

------------------
AH : Maniac
WB : -nr-1-

 
   
http://www.rsaf.org/osf/

[This message has been edited by Maniac (edited 03-22-2000).]

[CANNON]

 I love the one mstake and your dead aspect of AH. It is as close as a sim can come to the R L fear of death. There are BIG guns out there, and people who know how to use them. I went back and tried the new ver. of that other sim. For me it was like a kiddy pool. I got sprayed as much aas 6 times and rtb. That was 6 screwups i got away with. Try that here.

  I wish they would increase the bullit radius here even more. I get bouts of rubber bullits  and an increase would help. But for the time being the 1c does pretty good at making up for lost packets, or what ever is caseing my problem.

[Karnak]

I can describe the entirety of a Spitfire MkXIVs armor (its my preferred mount so I'm something of an expert about it).

Spitfire MkXIV Armor Distribution


There is an armor plate between the engine and the propeller nose cone.

The fuel tank, between the enging and the cockpit, is self sealing.

The front plate of the canopy is bullet proof (could stop a 20mm shell in a head on).

There is an armor plate in front of each ammuntion box in the wings.

There are two armor plates behind the pilot (first seen in the MkXIV.) because one plate was not enough to stop a 30mm shell.  The plates are separated by about six inches.  30mm shell hits the first and explodes, then the second plate stops the shrapnel from killing the pilot.


That is all of the armor on a Spitfire MkXIV

Sisu

[Beaz]

I think you guys need to ask yourself if you want to fly a sim where the emphasis is on ACM and out manoeuvering your opponent where there is a 'fair' chance of evading. Where if someone makes a 'good' attack and gets in a solid burst they are rewarded with a kill or whether the emphasis is on Quake? Judging from some of the responses here it looks like AH is geared towards the Quake crowd. Thats fine if you happen to like it like that. Don't you think you might actually learn something if you had it the other way around?

Does anyone horizontal scissor in AH?

Does anyone vertical scissor in AH?

Does anyone barrel roll with rudder assist in AH?

Do you people roll into lag pursuit to keep your energy up until you can pull lead for a shot?

Do you people put your lift vector on the guy after the merge?

Or do you take off, climb, dive, bladder... rince and repeat?

I notice in some of the threads on this board people already leaving AH because they are pissed off with the climb into the stratosphere and the one ping and your dead mentality. Like I say it is a no-brainer. Its not going to encourage good pilots to move over to AH. The only people that will be influenced are those not willing to pay for Warbirds because of the high online per hour charges.

If Warbirds and AH are exactly the same price. Flate rate, all you can eat. The connects are the same and it comes down to which sim is the best.

Would you fly the one with the "climb, dive, bladder... rince and repeat" mentality or would you fly the one that awarded people who flew well and got reasonable shots in where the 'combat' environment was 'balanced'?

Regards

Daren

------------------
Beaz aka ==bz==
249 Squadron RAF "Gold Coast"
"With Fists and Heels"
Part of the Tangmere Wing

[Westy]

"Does anyone horizontal scissor in AH?
 
 Does anyone vertical scissor in AH?

 Does anyone barrel roll with rudder assist in AH?

 Do you people roll into lag pursuit to keep your energy up until you can pull lead for a shot?

 Do you people put your lift vector on the guy after the merge? "


 Absolutely.

-Westy

 

[This message has been edited by Westy (edited 03-22-2000).]

[LLv34_Snefens]

 

Originally posted by juzz:
But are PK's even in AH? I never had one.

It's a pilot kill when you suddenly find yourself back at the tower, instead of spinning down towards the earth in your crippled plane. The "Aircraft as a projectile" hasn't been implemented yet, as it for instance also vanishes when you bail out.

 

Originally posted by bloom25:
he could pour 100s of rounds into an enemy and he was still flying, yet when he got hit once, he lost a wing. He had this happen 3 times in a row and logged off rather angry.

I don't believe that you are sure to hear a ping for every bullet that hits you. They might hit at same time, but I also have a feeling that if you recieve a concentrated ammount of hits to for instance your wing and it then is shot off, you won't hear all the hits before your hear the wing damage sound. AH will skip to the chase and maybe give you one ping warning and then give the wing damage sound.
Well that is just my own belief of how it works.

Try to ask your shooter if he only hit you once next time you experience this. Because in his FE he sees all the hits.

------------------
Ltn. Snefens
RO, Lentolaivue 34

[Vermillion]

Well, I am going to try and be a little more civil in my response, than in the accusation that I am nothing but a "Quake" pilot.

FYI I too flew Warbirds for quite some time, from ver 0.99 to ver 2.75, when 3 weeks ago I canceled my account there. I also flew (and still fly) with a highly regarded squadron in Warbirds, that was quite successful in both the MA and for the short time we flew in the S3 series, the **MOL**.

So please keep the condescenion to a minimum.

Yes the gunnery is more deadly, ie in my opinon, more realistic (not a hack on WB's, just my opinon). Go read Hotseats post on the Hispano on his design board where he repeatedly states that the lethality of WB's is turned down considerably for playability.

But to answer your other question Beaz, yes ALL the ACM you mentioned is quite effect here in Aces High. If you wish, Im sure many people here will spend time in teh Trainging Arena with you too prove it.

The only difference is that the timing is different, and usually you have to begin the manuever slightly earlier than you do in Warbirds. This coupled with a more demanding E model, means that you can't perform more than a few evasives, before the bad guy gets you, if you screw up.

My suggestion would be to try out your free two weeks before you form a decision on the games. They are different, and are gonna feel quite different, until you get some reasonable AH stick time. Don't form you opinon on what a few people spout off here, form in on your own experience.

Sorry if I seem a little miffed here, but I don't know how many times someone from WB's comes in here and immediately tells us we're a bunch of "Quake Pilots", without realizing that many of the pilots here came from the exact same place they did, and have just as much experience. Especially, when it is someone who I have had alot of respect for in the past, and who should know better.

All that said, I hope to see the Tangmere Wing here in AH soon, as I have enjoyed the encounters I have had with them in the past.

[edit: Don't believe the hype! Contrary to all the talk about "common 800+ yard kills" not a single person has yet produced guncam's, showing they can do it consistently.]

------------------
Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
"Desperately trying to figure out why Kamikaze Pilots wore helmets"

[This message has been edited by Vermillion (edited 03-22-2000).]

[Wanker]

Thus spake Beaz:
 

I think you guys need to ask yourself if you want to fly a sim where the emphasis is on ACM and out manoeuvering                       your opponent where there is a 'fair' chance of evading.

I agree 100% with you here, Beaz. OTOH, with AH's current state of development, I could live without it getting to this level until more strat and vehicles/planes are introduced. So while I agree with you that this is the goal, I would be ok with leaving it as is until my primary goal of more strat is added.

One more thing, Beaz. Just because everyone else doesn't jump on your band wagon right away, doesn't necessarily mean that they are "Quakers". There can be middle ground here. Just remember that "realism" in a sim is all relative. I haven't heard many cries for drop tanks from the Warbirds camp lately.

------------------
banana
308 (Polish) Squadron RAF "City of Cracow"
"On the whole, it is better to deserve honors and not have them than to have them and not deserve them"

[Dinger]

 

                    Does anyone horizontal scissor in AH?

                    Does anyone vertical scissor in AH?

                    Does anyone barrel roll with rudder assist in AH?

                    Do you people roll into lag pursuit to keep your energy up until you can pull lead for a
                    shot?

                    Do you people put your lift vector on the guy after the merge?

hell yes
and it works too.
(just steer clear of the cannon hawgs. g-d-r)