P-47d40 vs. P-47d25

[JUGgler]

The Ki84 is a lot more formidable than the zeek3s and Ki 61s I was obliterating in AvA, its a fast turney monster:rofl INK did a wonderful job of demonstrating that Even at 20k it was only marginally better~ I imaging the 84 doesn't get really gassed until you are 25k or over.

Pick and zoom from alt is the only way to get a KI 84 in the hands of a good stick~ I have to admit the 47 is totally outclassed in a coalt merge, and that is probably why allies never fought them like that when possible. If I spent more time in Late War I would probably have know that. <S> INK

Sigh!

It will be sad if I have to return!


Besides Grizz and Lippy I have yet to find a ki84 driver that owned my JUG so completely and even then I had the occasional brilliance or luck 

I suspect the results here shows a greater disparity in experience than anything else!

I bet it was fun none the less

 




JUGgler

[bj229r]

I'm the one man Jug Squad of MW where it really does especially well against those plane sets. 9 new(old but just introduced) D11 skins, how great is that?~ mostly pacific squadrons too and a really nice 1st Air Commandos skin. 

I could probably use some jug coaching as I am mostly self taught ~ Letalis and LilMak <S>

D-11 poor match against PJ

[ink]

Sigh!

It will be sad if I have to return!


Besides Grizz and Lippy I have yet to find a ki84 driver that owned my JUG so completely and even then I had the occasional brilliance or luck 

I suspect the results here shows a greater disparity in experience than anything else!

I bet it was fun none the less

 




JUGgler

 


that's all I am gonna say

[Hajo]

Been flying the Jug since being in Aces High almost 13 years.  It is a suprise to some on how well it can turn.  Rolls great also.
The turn radius at proper speed is very good.  The problem is that it will dump E quickly in that turn.  Very Very slow it can stay airborn
when others can not (D11 comes to mind...D40 also very slow).  In a good speed turn it suprises P51s.  Turns inside of them when it is
light and on the deck if the speed is favorable...evenly matched.

The P47s strengths will always be at altitude however. That belly ain't for a baby P47 it's for the supercharger.  They originally were
designed for Bomber escort and high alt performance.  The problem with on the deck fighting for the P47 is low alt acceleration and weight.
If you have to get the nose up at 150 mph....you won't....to time consuming and energy bleeding unless you wish to reverse.  If ya
don't quite make it you're dead LOL.

It's strength is 25K and over.  The unknowing K4 driver trying to go nose up to climb away will quickly find the M Jug gaining on it in the climb.
It's a beast at that alt. And the N Jug at that alt has bigger wings to grab more air along with the R-2800 that is the most powerful of all
fighter engines.....shared with the M and I believe the F4U-4.

[Debrody]

In a good speed turn it suprises P51s.  Turns inside of them when it is
light and on the deck if the speed is favorable...evenly matched.

Did some tests with Titan from the Top Gun, jug vs pony, 25% fuel deck turnfights.
The Jug won every time, and did it very quickly. We switched the rides and the jug won again, easily.
The matchups were Bravo vs D11 and Delta vs N-jug.

It's strength is 25K and over.  The unknowing K4 driver trying to go nose up to climb away will quickly find the M Jug gaining on it in the climb.
It's a beast at that alt.

Yup its a beast up high, but must be a real boring arse poor K4 pilot trying to BnZ a jug, at any altitude 

[titanic3]

The pony can't stall fight like the Jug can. Everytime I fought Deb in a pony and brought it under 100mph, it would snap stall into a left hand spin. I kept it from auguring but not without massive rudder work while Deb was using that time to get on my 6. Once the Jug is on the Ponies six, you can't shake him off. Jug turns better, and handles the slow speeds better.

One of our fights, I tried bringing it up hill and it worked somewhat, the Jug couldn't follow up enough for a shot, but I couldn't get a shot either when coming back down because the Jug can pull turns tighter at low speeds.


More or less the same when I switched over to the Jug too, although Deb managed to kill my twice out of 7 or 8 times we did it because I made a silly mistake. Fun fights Deb.

Long story short, Jug eats a Pony in an equal E fight.

[Noir]

Long story short, Jug eats a Pony in an equal E fight.

So does the P38J-L, and in that case you can't even get your nose up in the 51

[LilMak]

It rare that a pony will take down my Jug 1 on 1. Jug Definately has better low speed characteristics (turn/stability) than the 51 and is equal in the high speed manuvers. The pony has better E retention in the vertical but not quite enough power to pull away when the speeds get low. Best option for the pony is to disengage by a level drag race (don't try and dive away) and get a new perch before coming back in.

Planes I fear in the Jug...
KI-84, 109-F, FW190-A5
...not so much because of the planes but the sticks who fly them are usually above average.

[Butcher]

P-51D is outstanding above 17k, however Not sure what aircraft it can beat on the deck in a dog fight, if I chose the P38L, Mosquito, dora and 51 in a flat turn, pretty sure the 51 wins without flaps against both 38L and the dora, with flaps every plane should beat it - I think even the dora is roughly even with flaps down in a flat turn.

Mustang is just a long range escort fighter, not a pure dog fighter, in this sense you can't compare it to even a Dora 9 which was basically an interceptor - which doesn't follow the same combat guidelines.
Every aircraft comes with an operating altitude, the P51 stands out above 17-24k - which means its performance is on top of the charts, one reason you don't see an La7 up at 20k.
This being said, take a P47D-11 up to 30k and watch it school any plane under a Tier 5 aircraft.
Comparing the 51D to any P-47 is basically apples to oranges.

[JUGgler]

I find it interesting that this thread has become full of absolutes!

Even Ink has gone away from his "It's the pilot" stance to absolute "ki84 will own any JUG". It has become very interesting to me that all the things a player can do and try is just ignored in favor of "absolutes".

If there is one thing I've learned  about this game over the year it's, As soon as you think you and your plane are untouchable, someone comes along and quickly puts you in your place!


Also you all still ignore the 1 great advantage the JUG has over many many opponents!  


I think 0lDemon and GrmRpr may have a thing or 2 to say on how the pony performs in the mud


JUGgler

[Butcher]

Juggler you are comparing 1 pilot to the hundreds of thousands of sorties flown in a 51.

[titanic3]

Doesn't matter how good someone is, a vet will never be able to kill a two weeker in a 262 while he is in a D3A. There are certain plane matchups that you simply cannot beat.

Take a P40C, put it against a F4U4. No matter how good, no matter how bad, the P40 will never touch the F4U. Even a two week noob knows to drop flaps and turn in a circle, and the F4U will eventually outturn the P40.

[Noir]

Take a P40C, put it against a F4U4. No matter how good, no matter how bad, the P40 will never touch the F4U. Even a two week noob knows to drop flaps and turn in a circle, and the F4U will eventually outturn the P40.

I've seen 10 years AH vets unable to turn their F4U4 against a P51....but this out of the topic.

[Debrody]

Doesn't matter how good someone is, a vet will never be able to kill a two weeker in a 262 while he is in a D3A. There are certain plane matchups that you simply cannot beat.

I outturned many jugs on the deck in a 262 (yes, low alt full flaps rolling scissors), yet lost some to m3s, brewsters, TBM etc and one even to a PT boat.
Outscissored, overshot and killed many zeeks in a g6 yet lost one to LilMak's jug (in a medium speed scissors, co-E).
Tell me what a spitteen cant do at least 20% better than a 109G6. Tell this to all those dead spitteen pilots who failed to overshoot my brick.

My point is: everything is possible, maybe has a really very low chance, but possible.

[LilMak]

There are certainly no absolutes in the game Juggler but I've seen you call out that you would own yourself in a mixed plane fight (KI vs Jug).

Sometimes it comes down to styles. I've found there are certain players who are reputable monsters in their plane of choice who I can bring down with regularity and others who, in the same plane, will ring my bell every time. Sometimes style matchups are as important as plane choice.