Author Topic: How do pilots know the plane is going to stall?  (Read 3479 times)

Offline nrshida

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Re: How do pilots know the plane is going to stall?
« Reply #30 on: April 28, 2012, 04:40:34 PM »
Loss of feel through hydraulic control systems perhaps?
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Offline MachFly

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Re: How do pilots know the plane is going to stall?
« Reply #31 on: April 28, 2012, 04:41:57 PM »
The Westland Whirlwind Pilot's Manual mentions a stall buzzer fitted in the headrest.

That has got to be annoying.
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Offline MachFly

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Re: How do pilots know the plane is going to stall?
« Reply #32 on: April 28, 2012, 04:43:42 PM »
Loss of feel through hydraulic control systems perhaps?

Oh perhaps your right.
I only have experience with cable and FBW controls.
"Now, if I had to make the choice of one fighter aircraft above all the others...it would be, without any doubt, the world's greatest propeller driven flying machine - the magnificent and immortal Spitfire."
Lt. Col. William R. Dunn
flew Spitfires, Hurricanes, P-51s, P-47s, and F-4s

Offline colmbo

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Re: How do pilots know the plane is going to stall?
« Reply #33 on: April 28, 2012, 06:22:27 PM »
Oh perhaps your right.
I only have experience with cable and FBW controls.

Curious.  What FBW (I assume that's fly by wire) airplane have you flown?
Columbo

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Offline MachFly

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Re: How do pilots know the plane is going to stall?
« Reply #34 on: April 28, 2012, 06:55:05 PM »
Curious.  What FBW (I assume that's fly by wire) airplane have you flown?

I'd rather not discuss the specifics on a open forum.
Check PMs.
« Last Edit: April 28, 2012, 07:02:13 PM by MachFly »
"Now, if I had to make the choice of one fighter aircraft above all the others...it would be, without any doubt, the world's greatest propeller driven flying machine - the magnificent and immortal Spitfire."
Lt. Col. William R. Dunn
flew Spitfires, Hurricanes, P-51s, P-47s, and F-4s

Offline SouthLanda

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Re: How do pilots know the plane is going to stall?
« Reply #35 on: April 28, 2012, 07:44:32 PM »
Hi Titanic3,

Read through all the posts, however I have a point of view that I haven't yet seen mentioned. When we talk about plane stalling, I'm actually going to focus on the wing, rather than the plane.

Your hand holds the control stick, which is attached to the elevator.
The elevator is what sets the wing angle of attack. I.e. pull up on the stick, elevator pushes the tail down so the nose goes up.
Your wing stalls when your wing angle of attack exceeds its maximum angle.

So if you want to know 'how do pilots know the plane is going to stall', you just need to know:
How far to pull the stick back
You wing will stall at the same angle, whether you are going slow or fast. You can pull the stick back in your hands until the same point with and then the wing will stall.
You don't need an airspeed indicator, you don't need a buzzer, you don't need an AOA meter. Just remember 'about there' and never be tempted to pull past it, unless you deliberately want to stall the wing.
Usually, you will feel a tremor, just before you pull the stick back to 'that point'. This depends on aircraft design of the wing. Compare stalling characteristics of WW2 fighters such as the Spitfire to a FW190.

In tight turns or vertical manouvers such as loops, there is a temptation to try to pull the aircraft through that little bit faster the maneuvers, but if you are at maximum angle of attack, you cant do much more, pull the stick back further and you will just stall. You have that stick in your hands, as long as you don't pull it past maximum AOA point, you wont stall the wing. It just requires discipline to know that you set the position of the stick.


It is hard to compare real life to a computer simulation, because our joysticks don't model control forces. Above around 200MPH, the forces in real life, depending on trim, could physically stop you pulling the stick back enough to hit the wing maximum AOA. You only have so much muscle on your arm and that connected via the stick to the elevator and all the air moving over it.
Obviously, in a computer simulation, at 400 MPH, you can still move your computer joystick all the way back. Sims such as AH, ignore the position of your computer joystick as wishful thinking, because in real life, unless you had the right trim set, there is no way you would have enough muscle to pull the still right back at 500mph in real life.

So for the purposes of Aces High simulation, below 200MPH, find the angle on your computer joystick where the aircraft stalls. As long as you don't pull past that angle, you wont stall the wing.
In Aces High above 200 MPH,  it is harder to learn if the angle of your computer joystick is being represented by the same angle of the elevator up the back. If only we could have a computer force feedback mechanism strong enough... that would require some serious hydraulics and we might tear the top of the desk trying to pull up an un-trimmed aircraft up at 400 MPH in desperation!

Just remember, that there is a maximum angle of attack for a wing and as long as you don't try to exceed that angle, you wont stall.
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Offline MachFly

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Re: How do pilots know the plane is going to stall?
« Reply #36 on: April 28, 2012, 08:25:25 PM »
So if you want to know 'how do pilots know the plane is going to stall', you just need to know:
How far to pull the stick back

This is wrong.

I'll give you an example. If the DA42 I can pull the stick all the way back while being at 60% power (don't even bother trying it at full power) and it will not stall. I've started the maneuver at 8K and 85kts straight and level, and when I got to 13K and at 60° nose up it still does not come close to a stall. When I do the maneuver at 0 power exactly the same way (same stick position) it won't take long to stall.
Your right it's the angle of attack to defines the stall but angle of attack is the angle between the wing's chord line and the relative wind, not a level attitude. So even if I pull the stick all the way to go into a 90° pitch attitude as long as the wind is still going parallel to the wing the plane wont stall. When you don't have enough power to go fast as you pitch up the airplane does not climb the same way and the relative wind does not change therefore increasing your AoA and eventually you will stall.

There is a big difference between angle of attack and pitch attitude.
"Now, if I had to make the choice of one fighter aircraft above all the others...it would be, without any doubt, the world's greatest propeller driven flying machine - the magnificent and immortal Spitfire."
Lt. Col. William R. Dunn
flew Spitfires, Hurricanes, P-51s, P-47s, and F-4s

Offline hitech

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Re: How do pilots know the plane is going to stall?
« Reply #37 on: April 28, 2012, 08:48:49 PM »
I rarely know where the stick is positioned when I am flying. The only time I know is if I am up against the stops. And that typically only happens during 3 point landings, or aerobatics.

It is one of the things that does not translate to the sim world  because not many airplanes have a spring return to center. or a detente. Most flying is done by pressure  I.E. how much force you feel on the stick , not movement and position.

And as MachFly states. AOA is not directly tied to a stick position, any power change ,cg change , or speed change will change the relationship between position and AOA.

HiTech

Offline pembquist

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Re: How do pilots know the plane is going to stall?
« Reply #38 on: April 28, 2012, 09:19:48 PM »
I don't know if anybody mentioned sound.  My flight instructor insisted on covering up the Airspeed at some point in my instruction.  I think I already knew that you could fly without it but he was trying to make a point.  I learned first in a J3 and then a 150 for the x country/radio/instrument stuff.  I think it was a great way to learn as you really kept your head out of the cockpit and slips and grass fields were just normal.  Sorry for the reminiscence my point was that if your familiar with the airplane (small airplane, have not flown big ones) sound is a huge cue to your airspeed and condition of flight.
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Offline MachFly

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Re: How do pilots know the plane is going to stall?
« Reply #39 on: April 28, 2012, 09:49:01 PM »
I don't know if anybody mentioned sound.  My flight instructor insisted on covering up the Airspeed at some point in my instruction.  I think I already knew that you could fly without it but he was trying to make a point.  I learned first in a J3 and then a 150 for the x country/radio/instrument stuff.  I think it was a great way to learn as you really kept your head out of the cockpit and slips and grass fields were just normal.  Sorry for the reminiscence my point was that if your familiar with the airplane (small airplane, have not flown big ones) sound is a huge cue to your airspeed and condition of flight.

Sound? Please explain.
Wing does not produce any sounds and aren't you wearing a headset anyways?
"Now, if I had to make the choice of one fighter aircraft above all the others...it would be, without any doubt, the world's greatest propeller driven flying machine - the magnificent and immortal Spitfire."
Lt. Col. William R. Dunn
flew Spitfires, Hurricanes, P-51s, P-47s, and F-4s

Offline Tupac

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Re: How do pilots know the plane is going to stall?
« Reply #40 on: April 28, 2012, 10:07:05 PM »


and I couldn't see outside the airplane. You can definitely tell how fast you are going by sound. (generally) Same thing with road noise on a car - when I approach stall before the buzzer starts going the fences on the top of the wing make a very distinctive whistling noise. You can hear the air moving - put the nose down to 140 knots and listen, then listen at 100 knots. It's a big difference.
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Offline MachFly

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Re: How do pilots know the plane is going to stall?
« Reply #41 on: April 28, 2012, 10:16:20 PM »
(Image removed from quote.)

and I couldn't see outside the airplane. You can definitely tell how fast you are going by sound. (generally) Same thing with road noise on a car - when I approach stall before the buzzer starts going the fences on the top of the wing make a very distinctive whistling noise. You can hear the air moving - put the nose down to 140 knots and listen, then listen at 100 knots. It's a big difference.

Oh telling the speed by sound, thought he meant identifying the stall by sound. I'd say this isn't very practical in larger aircraft as the stall speed changed with weight.

Also aren't you wearing a headset? The only thing I hear when wearing a headset is when my engines are operating above 90%.
"Now, if I had to make the choice of one fighter aircraft above all the others...it would be, without any doubt, the world's greatest propeller driven flying machine - the magnificent and immortal Spitfire."
Lt. Col. William R. Dunn
flew Spitfires, Hurricanes, P-51s, P-47s, and F-4s

Offline Tupac

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Re: How do pilots know the plane is going to stall?
« Reply #42 on: April 28, 2012, 10:22:40 PM »
Yes, I wear a headset. I can still hear the engine and wind sound.....what kinda headset do you have?
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Offline MachFly

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Re: How do pilots know the plane is going to stall?
« Reply #43 on: April 28, 2012, 10:43:11 PM »
Yes, I wear a headset. I can still hear the engine and wind sound.....what kinda headset do you have?

D&C H10-13

Well I do hear the engine but it's in the background, so it's more like I know that it exists than I hear it as the sound. I wouldn't give the credit to the headset though, think it's the Diamond's canopy.
« Last Edit: April 28, 2012, 10:44:50 PM by MachFly »
"Now, if I had to make the choice of one fighter aircraft above all the others...it would be, without any doubt, the world's greatest propeller driven flying machine - the magnificent and immortal Spitfire."
Lt. Col. William R. Dunn
flew Spitfires, Hurricanes, P-51s, P-47s, and F-4s

Offline Wolfala

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Re: How do pilots know the plane is going to stall?
« Reply #44 on: April 28, 2012, 11:25:10 PM »


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