he-177 a-5 german bomber

[Debrody]

There is no "Axis" or "Allies" in the MA.  The Rooks, Knights and Bishops all have access to the B-17G, B-24J, B-29A and Lancaster Mk III.

My problem with it is that, by the numbers, it would dominate the B-17G, B-24J and Lancaster Mk III and be the best free bomber in the game.  That is what I dislike.  The idea that a historical failure would be utterly superior to three historically successful heavy bombers.

If that would be the only problem with the 177... that would be so easy to solve: perk it!
But your "role in the war" argument is valid. I think "the" mid-late war luft bomber should be the Ju-188: fast, had a decent bombload, its defensive guns werent that bad at all.

[Karnak]

Ju188 is also a great looking airplane, unlike the ungainly abomination that is the He177.

[Krusty]

And the He-177 would give us an Axis heavy bomber FOR THE MA.

That's the wrong mentality. The Germans didn't have or really NEED heavy bombers. It wasn't in their national doctrine of force deployment. Same goes with the Soviets, really.

As a cultural mentality (if you will) they didn't have heavy bombers, and didn't need them. They didn't wage a war that required them. They used what all other countries would consider "medium" bombers. They used lots of them. That's pretty much all they used. That's just how they worked.

They don't need a "heavy" German bomber for the MA because it just wasn't how the Germans fought in WW2.


That's the false premise I was talking about previously. They don't need a heavy MA bomber, so the request is moot.



EDIT:

P.S.:

[USRanger]

Thanks to Greebo, I have an He-177 substitute when I need it.

[Tank-Ace]

That's the wrong mentality. The Germans didn't have or really NEED heavy bombers. It wasn't in their national doctrine of force deployment. Same goes with the Soviets, really.

As a cultural mentality (if you will) they didn't have heavy bombers, and didn't need them. They didn't wage a war that required them. They used what all other countries would consider "medium" bombers. They used lots of them. That's pretty much all they used. That's just how they worked.

They don't need a "heavy" German bomber for the MA because it just wasn't how the Germans fought in WW2.


That's the false premise I was talking about previously. They don't need a heavy MA bomber, so the request is moot.

Its the MA you moron, who cares about what they needed historically. If it saw use at squadron strenght, got a kill, and entered serial production, it meets requirments. Hell, as long as it saw service during WWII it meets requirments.

Special Events are for the history. Since we have lancasters dive bombing from 3k, P-51's shooting down Spitfires and other P-51's, A6M's shooting down bettys, etc, saying 'they didn't need a heavy bomber, it wasn't their mentality' is a pretty piss-poor argument for blocking the He-177.

[Raphael]

Thanks to Greebo, I have an He-177 substitute when I need it.

That's cool

[Krusty]

Special Events are for the history. Since we have lancasters dive bombing from 3k, P-51's shooting down Spitfires and other P-51's, A6M's shooting down bettys, etc, saying 'they didn't need a heavy bomber, it wasn't their mentality' is a pretty piss-poor argument for blocking the He-177.

Wanting it just to replace a plane already in the game you can already fly any time you want for free (no perks even) is a piss poor argument for including the 177.

In the MA-only mentality, you don't need it. You've got others already just as good or better than it. As has already been pointed out, there is no axis-v-allied in the MA. Fly a friggin' B-17.

[jag88]

That's the wrong mentality. The Germans didn't have or really NEED heavy bombers. It wasn't in their national doctrine of force deployment. Same goes with the Soviets, really.

As a cultural mentality (if you will) they didn't have heavy bombers, and didn't need them. They didn't wage a war that required them. They used what all other countries would consider "medium" bombers. They used lots of them. That's pretty much all they used. That's just how they worked.

They don't need a "heavy" German bomber for the MA because it just wasn't how the Germans fought in WW2.


That's the false premise I was talking about previously. They don't need a heavy MA bomber, so the request is moot.



EDIT:

P.S.:

(Image removed from quote.)

The Greif was a heavy bomber and the DID use it in WW2 so what you are saying is not accurate.

That they made a mess out of it is a different story.

[jag88]

this would be a great bomber has 17mm and 20 mm cannon mounted pretty much in every direction
1 × 7.92 mm MG 81 machine gun in "fishbowl" nose glazing
1 × 20 mm MG 151 cannon in forward ventral Bola gondola position
1 × 13 mm MG 131 machine gun in rear ventral Bola gondola position
2 × 13 mm MG 131 machine guns in FDL 131Z remotely operated forward dorsal turret, full 360° traverse
1 × 13 mm MG 131 machine gun in manned Hydraulische Drehlafette DL 131I aft dorsal turret
1 × 20 mm MG 151/20 cannon in tail position

the load out is just awesome

Up to 6,000 kg (13,227 lb) of ordnance internally/7,200 kg (15,873 lb) externally
has a ton of options including 2 × LT 50 torpedoes under the wing

yeah pretty much its a lancaster with poorer flight characteristics and a better defensive armament

Actually, I think it could carry up to four torpedoes:



Which is nothing to be surprised about given that even a Do-217 could do just that:



But, the torpedo-carrying version was cancelled when the war took a turn for the worse, so no TT for the Greif.  Only a measly 7.000Kg bombload.




JAG

[Tank-Ace]

Wanting it just to replace a plane already in the game you can already fly any time you want for free (no perks even) is a piss poor argument for including the 177.

In the MA-only mentality, you don't need it. You've got others already just as good or better than it. As has already been pointed out, there is no axis-v-allied in the MA. Fly a friggin' B-17.

Following this mentality, use in the MA is completely irrelevent for most of the un-added planes and vehicles. There would be no reason to get a Yak-3, Ki-43, Ki-100, nothing new from an MA standpoint. Non, zero, zip. Do you realize that you're essentially saying we shouldn't get the Glostor Meteor, since its historical significance is basicly non-existent, and we already have the 262?

[olds442]

Following this mentality, use in the MA is completely irrelevent for most of the un-added planes and vehicles. There would be no reason to get a Yak-3, Ki-43, Ki-100, nothing new from an MA standpoint. Non, zero, zip. Do you realize that you're essentially saying we shouldn't get the Glostor Meteor, since its historical significance is basicly non-existent, and we already have the 262?

i agree here. its like saying we dont need the spitfires besides the 16. because its best.

[Karnak]

i agree here. its like saying we dont need the spitfires besides the 16. because its best.

Kinda the opposite actually.  We don't want to see a historical failure become the best bomber in the MA.  Others want that to happen just because it is German.

[Volron]

If that would be the only problem with the 177... that would be so easy to solve: perk it!
But your "role in the war" argument is valid. I think "the" mid-late war luft bomber should be the Ju-188: fast, had a decent bombload, its defensive guns werent that bad at all.

Coding it so you can't go to it's true full power and perking it should do the trick.  Or you can go to full power, but your engines catch fire if in it too long.  Personally, I think coding the governor into it would be easier.

I know it's from wiki but...

"With the introduction of the DB 610 came several improvements including the relocation of the engine oil tank, the lengthening of the engine mountings by 20 cm (8 in), the complete redesign of the exhaust system which also facilitated the installation of exhaust dampers for night missions, and the setting of a power limitation on the engines which resulted in greater reliability. These modifications, supposedly numbering 56 of both major and minor varieties, were successful as far as eliminating engine fires were concerned, but other minor problems with the transfer gearbox between the two component engines of each "power system" and their shared propeller remained."

If what I read was correct, the He-177 A-5 used the DB 610's.  If we were talking about an earlier version of the He-117, prior to the A-3, then having the engines catch fire easily when hit would be a more valid option.

I hope we get the Do-217, just so we FINALLY have a Dornier in the lineup.

[Debrody]

Kinda the opposite actually.  We don't want to see a historical failure become the best bomber in the MA.  Others want that to happen just because it is German.

Its something simmilar to why i had bad feelings about the Meteor: a plane what never seen any flying enemy aircraft yet it would be the best plane in game...  odd enough, isnt it? But thats for an other topic.

Btw why it would be the best bomber in AH? Its maximum speed was around 550kmph ~ 345mph @ 19500 feet unloaded, whats only 30mph more than the b24 at that altitude. Being a relative light aircraft, without exact information i can only guess how badly the big bombload affected its performance... pretty badly i guess: my bet is on a zirka 280mph loaded cruising speed.
Also, the "Flaming Coffin" effect was solved when they changed the DB-606 (dual DB-603) to a lighter DB-610 (dual DB-605) on the A-3 and A-5 versions. Of course the performance was reduced as the 605 is a smaller engine than the 603, and the plane still couldnt operate at full speed for a long time due to engine overheating, at least the random flames werent causing disasters anymore. It meant the planes cruising speed was quite a bit slower than the maximum, especially when it was loaded. This could be represented by a very limited WEP usage.
Yes, its early series were complete disasters but not the later models.  ~1150 was produced from this aircraft, ~345 A-5s and ~500 A-3s with the improved DA-610 engine.

I dont think it should be "the" german bomber added, just trying to prove your "über yet complete crap" argument isnt valid. It wasnt über, nor complete crap, and i think it might have a place in this game, in the far future of course. But there are way more inportant models what are missing from AH and the ju-188 is one of those.

[Rich52]

When it finally dawned on them that they started a "World War" they wanted heavy bombers very much. Unfortunatly for them they simply didnt have the time or resources available to produce effective ones. Hitler loved the idea of bombers. They began to seriously discuss the idea even before the war started and by '42 had several designs ready, some of which made it to prototype. In Early summer of '41 the first of the huge city busting bomber raids began with Munster being the target. A year later Cologne was heavily damaged by over 1,000 bombers. But the real kicker was the utter destruction of Hamburg a year later during a week long campaign by Brit and Yank bombers.

That's the wrong mentality. The Germans didn't have or really NEED heavy bombers. It wasn't in their national doctrine of force deployment. Same goes with the Soviets, really.

As a cultural mentality (if you will) they didn't have heavy bombers, and didn't need them. They didn't wage a war that required them. They used what all other countries would consider "medium" bombers. They used lots of them. That's pretty much all they used. That's just how they worked.

They both needed and wanted them. They also waged a war that required them. Unfortunately for them they just werent prepared and by the time the Germans went into full wartime production it was to late.