Author Topic: .50 cal ammo  (Read 6780 times)

Offline save

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Re: .50 cal ammo
« Reply #30 on: June 27, 2012, 06:25:28 PM »
I tyically gets what I refer to as rubber bullets, when framerates drop radically, entering a field where there is multiple targets/friendlies in the area, typically a "horde attack" with many friendly uppers.

After I changed graphics card "rubber bullets" have been reduced dramatically for me.

I use Vsync on all the time.





My ammo last for 6 Lancasters, or one Yak3.
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Offline hitech

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Re: .50 cal ammo
« Reply #31 on: June 27, 2012, 07:51:33 PM »

Hitech can you help us understand what we have been trying to describe all of these years when we say "Rubber Bullets"?

 

No I can not help you understand because I really have no idea what "Rubber bullets" are.

It seems to be a term used when people are simply having a bad streak with their gunnery, all I can tell you is that if you see a hit, it is scored on the server. I have had people claim what I say is not true, but each and every time we have tested it, or looked at films, (we even have code that will tell you each hit you send and each hit the host saw enabled with a permission flag like CM). The claim has been proven false.

HiTech



Offline Tank-Ace

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Re: .50 cal ammo
« Reply #32 on: June 27, 2012, 08:14:13 PM »
Gotta agree with Hitech on that.


Every time I hear someone complain of rubber bullets, theres usually an explaination on his end of things. Whenever I was accused of hacking, or whatever, in-game, it was always by that one isolated twit that sprayed .303 caliber bullets all over the aircraft, and then complained when he didn't get a kill after expending 300 rounds, 3/4ths of which missed me.


Hell, I even got crap from one idiot who couldn't penetrate my Tiger I's glacis plate at 2000yds when firing at an off-angle with his Firefly. He said that the 17lber could penetrate the Tiger I up close, and so was pissed he couldn't do it at stand-off ranges. Turns out he was completely unaware of the fact that shells slowed down with distance traveled, and that penetration dropped accordingly. After a short discussion, it became apparent he wasn't even aware of the fact that drag was modeled in the game. He figured aircraft were just programed to slow down at a fixed rate when the engine was off.
You started this thread and it was obviously about your want and desire in spite of your use of 'we' and Google.

"Once more unto the breach"

Offline bustr

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Re: .50 cal ammo
« Reply #33 on: June 28, 2012, 06:44:27 AM »
Then calling the phenominon a phenominon is probably more accurate.

So what is the phenominon that at 100 yards where the probability of at least a single hit sprite to occur, all the rounds are seen as passing through the con. I am not the only player over the years to experience this. I have watched this at full zoom over repeated sortie  during an evening attempting to be fair to the idea I was simply having a bad night at the trigger. Then logged from the game and rebooted my router and PC. Came back in and at 100 yards on full zoom only needed to tap the trigger in the exact same sight pictures and cons blow up, wings fall off or cons fly away smoking and leaking fuel.

I know the sight picture is exactly the same becasue I have a drop compensation line in my gunsights that act as the benchmark for reproducing the aiming sight picture. Offline with the exact same sight picture and distances, all of the drones register hit sprites and fall to peices rapidly. After 10 years of constantly playing this game, it's a repeated phenominon which is hard to miss from my side of the shooting when it occures. It reproduces itself at 100 yards and closer on full zoom unloading my whole magazine into a con. No hit sprites, the rounds just pass through the con. At 100 yards on full zoom and the whole nine yards from any fighter you would think I would see at least a single hit sprite on a fleeing con. Simple odds are in my favor for just one sprite if it's a case of me having occasional senior moments at the joystick.

I guess after all of these years I'm just smoking too much crack and probably am so blind I can't really see my screen while hearing voices in my head from Mars. But, then UFO are considered a phenominon of the mentaly challenged even though they have repeatedly been visualy observed by people around the world but, no one has yet to record one in a manner acceptable by their local authorities. 
bustr - POTW 1st Wing


This is like the old joke that voters are harsher to their beer brewer if he has an outage, than their politicians after raising their taxes. Death and taxes are certain but, fun and sex is only now.

Offline hitech

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Re: .50 cal ammo
« Reply #34 on: June 28, 2012, 10:34:52 AM »
Bustr: Have you considered speed ,altitude and convergence also changes the drop in bullets, hence your sight lines are only accurate for one speed and one alt?

All I can say is FILM!

HiTech
« Last Edit: June 28, 2012, 12:41:15 PM by hitech »

Offline Butcher

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Re: .50 cal ammo
« Reply #35 on: June 28, 2012, 01:33:01 PM »
In almost 10 years I never had "Rubber bullet" issues, I have had BAD internet, BAD computers, bad video cards and bad aim, but never had shots I know I made miss, mostly because I do FILM everything in case i have a question.

People really complain far to much, I've played with vSync on and off, I see no difference other then slight graphic bugs.

Rubber Bullets? People have bad aim.
JG 52

Offline bustr

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Re: .50 cal ammo
« Reply #36 on: June 28, 2012, 06:06:29 PM »
Yes I've considered film.

Not knowing when the next occurence will happen as a rule, I would have to begin every evening I fly with running constant film until the next phenomenon's occurence. What kind of game debt will I perceive on my end to my quality of making others go boom if I have to run constant films as part of my game play routine until the phenomenon repeats itself? AT least the phenomenon has a peak time range from my perspective once it is observable. By 10pm PST when numbers in the arena drop off, if I haven't rebooted my router earlier. I will begin to see hit sprites again and record a few kills but, many more assists as the sprites never appere to result in much damage at any range. A reboot at even this time improves the kill numbers over assists.


How can ATT and other providors equipment contribute to creating this phenomenon as described such, that my game clients over years of ever updated clients show me the exact same phenomenon year after year?

My gunnery skill as a one size fits all source of the problem suggested by this audience becomes a canard in the face of the repitition of this pehnomenon over the span of 10 years. The odds of every player no matter their skill level achiving even "one" hit sprite in a combat exchange when firing from dead 6 at or under 100 yards exposes the canard. Not all players have the exact same quality of connection path or good fortune of internet packet passage as others if you disect that species of world wide network penomenon from across the globe. The percentages are in favor of "phenomenon" occuring once you are outside of an internaly controled LAN becasue of the higher traffic, whats known about internet infrastructuer and internet providors.

The explanation about gunnery information and TCP validates it is not the game producing the phenomenon via practical experience in the game and years of IT support. For example, late arriving rounds killing me after seeing the con in my rear view while experiencing my specific phenomenon. But, the phenomenon interacts with the game regardless in a manner that repeats it's symptoms exactly the same, while most often the solution is rebooting my current router and current PC. In 10 years this has been many different  PC, routers, and two ATT DSL modem replaced, from my same location in Oakland Ca.

The worst case scenario is two Texas routers just before the game server showing errors and high ping times in PingPlotter to such a degree rebooting on my end does not aleviate the issue. Usualy 12 hours later barring a national issue, the routers are back to normal and the phenomenon is gone. Of the total occurences the routers are 20% of the time over any year in the last 10 and often anecdotaly in concert with national events to which U.S. based Internet subscribers would be online in peak numbers. I used to jokingly beleive since my last hop before Texas was an SF gateway, that it was driven by steer documentairy subscriptions being enjoyed in SF from sources streaming out of Texas.

As you can see I am describing an external penomenon which interacts with the game at least from my client application's perspective. I'm attempting to understand it's anatomy, not point fingers. I have never considered this HTC's fault, simply irritating when it occurs from time to time. Only a fool would assume the Internet like the ocean is a perfict and placid domain.

My apologies if my curiosity has detoured your time from helping solve your customer's solvable problems. The description of TCP tied to gunnery information was new to me and caused a train of curiosity.

As always if given a choice, please use a wooden ban stick if that is applicable to this issue.
bustr - POTW 1st Wing


This is like the old joke that voters are harsher to their beer brewer if he has an outage, than their politicians after raising their taxes. Death and taxes are certain but, fun and sex is only now.

Offline Tank-Ace

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Re: .50 cal ammo
« Reply #37 on: June 28, 2012, 11:04:16 PM »
In almost 10 years I never had "Rubber bullet" issues, I have had BAD internet, BAD computers, bad video cards and bad aim, but never had shots I know I made miss, mostly because I do FILM everything in case i have a question.

People really complain far to much, I've played with vSync on and off, I see no difference other then slight graphic bugs.

Rubber Bullets? People have bad aim.

I really think this sums up most people's issues quite nicely. Film, or its your word against a series of possible explinations for the issue you're reporting. Unless there is film, theres no way to see any underlying problems.
You started this thread and it was obviously about your want and desire in spite of your use of 'we' and Google.

"Once more unto the breach"

Offline R 105

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Re: .50 cal ammo
« Reply #38 on: June 29, 2012, 07:35:53 AM »
 One thing I noticed with wing mounted guns be it the Browning 50 cal or what ever is that the convergence settings is a big deal. I was doing a lot of ground attacking of ords and radar in a P-51D because I have low frame rate and dog fighting it tough with no frame rate. I had my guns pushed out to 600 for ground targets and it worked great. However I couldn't hit another plane very well at all. I especially missed when I was close in at 200 or 300 meters.

 What I found was I was shooting right over their heads and all because of my 600 meter setting. Remember your guns are well below your line of sight because they are in the wings. They may be 5 foot lower then you are in the cockpit especially in huge US fighters like the F4U. I dropped my convergence to 300 meters on all my planes no matter what I am flying and it seemed to help me. I still don't have much frame rate and that may be my biggest problem and I play on a 14 inch monitor. But my 50s hit planes much better now. Like I said before, go off line and try different setting until you find the range that works best for you. 

Offline kvuo75

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Re: .50 cal ammo
« Reply #39 on: June 29, 2012, 09:04:04 AM »
the closest thing to "rubber bullets" ive seen is more like "delayed bullets".

I think i've only seen it twice, where you will absolutely score substantial hits, and killshots on a target (or even multiple targets), but no result.. until minutes later, then everything "catches up".  I especially recall one example a few years ago, I'm sitting on a vbase in an ostie, score multiple hits on several fighters with no result, a goon comes in, lands near me, I hit him about 100 times in the cockpit. nothing. a minute later, 3 or 4 kills pop up, the base is taken, and i'm in the tower. 

I'll check see if I can find film, it might have predated the auto-film sorties tho..
kvuo75

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Offline WING47

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Re: .50 cal ammo
« Reply #40 on: July 08, 2012, 01:46:32 PM »
:bhead OK, Hi Tech, this is not a compliant, but a honest question. Has anything happened to change the effectiveness of .50 cal ammo? I am getting good shots from 200 to 400 yds, with sparkles all over the aircraft and not getting kills,(except every once in a while), don't even get a engine smoke. Don't say its my poor aim, because if you do, be glad to meet you in training arena and show you that I can hit a target at 400 yds as good as anyone else. What I am curious about is this, I have a HP desk top, 8.5 GB, with advanced graphic cards, (2) and 99% of the time, my frame rate is between 55 and 65. So, do you have any suggestions, beside flying up the con's rear and hope I get the kill? I am not the only one complaining about the effectiveness of .50 cal.
Honestly I have witnessed this myself, and I think the culprit is this. Compared to somthing like a 20mm the regular 50cal BMG round is not much to talk about. However..... American aircraft were loaded with API or Armour Piercing Incendiary ammo. The 50 cal would also mushroom as it went through an aircraft, meaning the entrance wound is a-lot smaller compared to the exit wound. That's why we see in guncams wings getting blown off in one or two hits with 50 cals, cause the round mushrooms out and tears the wing, however the distance the round travels through a target can effect this. So rarely would you see a one shot from a 50 cal. So yes you're right, but I don't code the damage model, and from what I understand that kind of stuff is really complicated. I think we should cut HTC some slack here, just slightly increase the effectiveness of P-51 P-38 F4U etc etc guns.

Offline Karnak

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Re: .50 cal ammo
« Reply #41 on: July 08, 2012, 01:56:11 PM »
WING47,

If the .50 is increased, as you suggest, the 20mm Hispano would also need to be increased per the US Navy's documentation.

Also, I don't see a lot of gun camera films from US fighters where a couple hits blow wings off.
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Offline shiv

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Re: .50 cal ammo
« Reply #42 on: July 08, 2012, 02:23:43 PM »
Yes I've considered film.

Not knowing when the next occurence will happen as a rule, I would have to begin every evening I fly with running constant film until the next phenomenon's occurence. What kind of game debt will I perceive on my end to my quality of making others go boom if I have to run constant films as part of my game play routine until the phenomenon repeats itself? AT least the phenomenon has a peak time range from my perspective once it is observable. By 10pm PST when numbers in the arena drop off, if I haven't rebooted my router earlier. I will begin to see hit sprites again and record a few kills but, many more assists as the sprites never appere to result in much damage at any range. A reboot at even this time improves the kill numbers over assists.

Game debt, eh.

Just put Auto Film on, when something happens press alt-r and save the film, then hit alt-r again. That way anything you need to see will be at the end of each saved film.

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Offline jtdragon

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Re: .50 cal ammo
« Reply #43 on: July 12, 2012, 10:21:17 PM »
I also have firied 1000's of rounds, One thng that most people here don't know is that aircraft M2s use a different barrel. shorter and lighter that the ground mount m-2s, it had a faster rate of fire but you would not have the long range with it. We got a few of them in Nam but found that they overheated very fast.
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Offline Patches1

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Re: .50 cal ammo
« Reply #44 on: July 13, 2012, 09:38:33 AM »

I mostly experience the "Rubber Bullet Syndrome" :furious when I am very tired, :frown: or have been downing too many of HiTech's "flying Beck's"  :cheers:, or am simply overcompensating for my convergence setting.:mad:

Interestingly enough, one night I was flying very refreshed (and sober  :angel:), and found myself on the tail of a bad guy who was not maneuvering; :O an easy kill! I waited until I was exactly at my convergence setting, and fired...! After my eyes opened, I was surprised to see the con still flying straight and level...I had caught myself jerking the trigger and closing my eyes for just an instant...and that was all it took for the "Rubber Bullet Syndrome" to reveal itself to me.:eek:

I'm not saying that some folks don't experience technical issues, but I am saying that most of us can do some introspection and find that the "Rubber Bullet Syndrome" is mostly the cause of the one behind the trigger.

I don't know how many of you have been taught this phrase: "Beware of the driver driving the car behind the one in front of you";  it seems appropriate with "Rubber Bullet Syndrome". Think about it.

 :)

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