Rate of drop.

[nrshida]

Nrshida.  While your constant 32.2 f/s is the rate, the weight does matter. 

Yes for muzzle velocity, deceleration and the energy it imparts in the terminal ballistic stage. Once you have accepted the drop is a constant it all clicks into place.

For the shooting, just learn the flightpath of the round which is fairly predictable and the required lead, I have a manual somewhere hereabouts if you need help with that.

[Ten60]

For the shooting, just learn the flightpath of the round which is fairly predictable and the required lead, I have a manual somewhere hereabouts if you need help with that.

There isn't a manual long enough to make me better at that.  I'm merely trying to develop an optimized convergence.

[FLS]

Good idea.  But what are the physical dimensions of the target in game?

The inner circle looks like a 10 ft radius. The target command is the easy way to see the effects of convergence at different ranges and you have the bonus of also seeing the gun dispersion.

[nrshida]

Here Ten60, read this:-



...and watch this...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zsIz2bIBLwM

[bustr]

Don't forget drop compensation.

What you are looking for in the game is how to use your gunsight when you boil all of this down. I used to think all of the physics and math you are about to embark on would give me the "A HA" moment of clarity into gunnery in Aces High. It will hone your perceptions to understanding the process without a doubt.

But, it won't substituit for practicing gunnery and understanding the relationship of your bullet streams to your Reticle as affected by physical forces. The British cartoon gunnery manual "Bag the Hun" does but, as a cartoon becasue they learned in WW2 we learn visualy\tactiley. Even the germans with their cartoon manual "Schiessfibel" understood this.

Both Manuals: http://dog.beckament.net/2011/03/31/wwii-air-combat.html

If you follow the math and programing you will learn more about ballistics than you ever wanted to. But, that is not gunnery. You learn gunnery by pulling a trigger. - sight picture - post and pumpkin - whites of their eyes - can't make omlettes with breaking some eggs -

Here is a challenge that will teach you much of what you are really looking for. This will turn into a wall of text and data, so be warned.
-------------------------------------

You will be constructing two gunsights. One to collect data and one to use the data to reap cons. Hitech has made it possible to build gunsights so they are Mil correct to our pilots FoV and gauging size at distance. This means you can study the manuals "Bag the Hun" or "Schiessfibel" and they will work in the game.

A 512x512 bitmap will result in 1Mil = 2Pixel.

Gunsights:

Open your favorite art program.

Making a 100Mil Ring and dot gunsight with drop comp line.

1. - Open a new 512x512 art sheet and save it as an 8bit bitmap. Name it GunS1.bmp.
2. - Save As a copy name it GunS2.bmp.
3. - In both fill the background with black.
4. - In both create a 3 pixel wide orange circle starting your pull from (156, 156) ending at (356, 356).
5. - In GunS1 at (256, 256) paint an 11 pixel dia orange dot.
6. - In GunS1 at line 284 use a line tool and pull a 1 pixel orange line from ring edge to ring edge.
7. - Save GunS1 you now have a 100Mil ring and dot gunsight with a drop comp line for wing mounted guns.
8. - For nose mounted guns like the La7, 109, Yak and even the 190's becasue the cannons are so close to the fuslage. Draw the comp line at 278. In my gunsights I've further reduced these lines to hash marks with 5 pixel spaces. If you run a blur tool over this gunsight to smooth the edges. Zoom in and reduce the ghost line back down to 1 pixel wide.

Making a data Collection gunsight to use with the Offline Target.

1. - Open GunS2.bmp.
2. - Pull 2 lines 1 pixel width in CYAN color as a bisecting cross centerd at (256, 256).
3. - Mirror these two lines in orange 20 pixel above and below the horizontal and 20 pixel left and right of the vertical.
4. - Horizontal and vertical at every 20 pixel create a 1 pixel (orange) line connection between the orange parallel lines making ladders.
5. - Now at every 10 pixel in between these draw 1 pixel wide lines (cyan) 11 pixel wide. You are creating a hash grid.
6. - You should have a hash grid cross centerd in a 100Mil dia circle with units of separation demarkiing 10Mil and 5Mil in orange and cyan.

The 512x512 format requires you include in your sights directory a text file with the same "name.mil" to support the "name.bmp" reticle displaying correctly in your gunsight.

For GunS1.bmp create a GunS1.mil file with the number 256 saved in it.
For GunS2.bmp create a GunS2.mil file with the number 256 saved in it.

I have found the best way to create the mil file and have AH parse it properly is the folowing.

1. - Open notepad. Save a new text file with 256 in it as "GunS1.mil.txt"
2. - In file manager highlight the file and do a rename by removing the ".txt" reducing it to "GunS1.mil"
3. - Place both the GunS1.bmp & GunS1.mil in your Sights directory and the gunsight will display correctly when you spawn your fighter. A 100Mil ring just fills the hight of the K14 gunsight reflector plate in the P51D.
4. - Repeat with GunS2.
---------------------------------------

How to use these gunsights to compliment each other.

The Guns2 gunsight is a Mil gauge collection tool used in conjunction with the offline target. You fly your aircraft due north autoleved and pull up the target at any distance out to 5k in .5 yard incraments starting at 1.0 yards. This how I created the speed chart to make every fighter in the game fly in an attiude that mimics placing the fighter up leveled on a static stand able to shoot out to 100 yards. Including it in this post exceeded my 1000 work limit.

Data collection using the P51D and Guns2.

1. - Set all guns to 300 convergence for this test and select Guns2 from the gunsights app. 25% fuel.
2. - Use any offline airfeild that lets you fly North over water for 5 or 6 sectors.
3. - Spawn and takoff, climb to 1000 feet flying due north. Set speed for the P51D to 285 True Airspeed. (.SPEED DesiredMPH)
4. - Open the E6b and make sure True Airspeed is 285.
5. - You can test this by (.Target 3) and see that the center of the spinner is centered into the center of the target.
6. - Set arena time to (.time 01:00). It's easier to see the target and reticle lines on Full Zoom.
7. - Set the target out in 25, 50, 100 yard incraments from 100 to 600 and on full zoom shoot while looking at the patterning. Notice the relative relationship of the reticle center to the pattern at each distance. Think about this relative to the drop compensation line you will test next.

Using the drop compensation line in Gun1.

1. - Offline using your P51d and convergence still at 300, 25% fuel.
2. - Set your arena time back to noon. (.time 12:00).
3. - Choose Gun1 from the gunsight app.
4. - Spawn and climb up to 3k into the drone circle.
5. - Starting at 400 back of a drone goto zoom and place the drop comp line inline with the drone's wings.
6. - Hold off the correct lead into the circle and fire. Watch your tracers arch up and drop into the drone. Adjust as needed.
7. - Repeat at 200, adjust as needed. This works even at 600 adjust lead and elevation as needed.
8. - Enable the Lead Computing gunsight and repeat this test. Note the relative position of the drop comp line as you place the center circle on the green crosses.
9. If you made an additional gunsight with the 278 line try the same with your La's, Yaks, 109's and 190's. Placing the two lines in a GunS1 will become confusing.

This is not a point a click solution. It is a constant reference guide line to help you start from a good sight picture knowing what the level drop compensation is. If you download and read "Bag the Hun" you will recognise what this gunsight is guiding you to as your sight picture. GunS1 line 284 is for all wing mounted guns, MG or cannon mounted outboard of the landing gear. GunS1 line 278 is for nose and hood guns. Cannons closer into the fuslage act like hood and nose mounted guns in their horizontal ballistics and convergence to the hood mounted MG.

Note: By adding a 120Mil single pixel wide ghost circle to GunS1 284, you give yourself the 30 degree holdoff from "Bag the Hun".
---------------------------------------

Units of Mil

1Mil @ 50yds = 1.7 inches
1Mil @ 100yds = 3.6 inches
1Mil @ 150yds = 5 inches
1Mil @ 200yds = 7 inches
1Mil @ 250yds = 9 inches
1Mil @ 300yds = 11 inches
1Mil @ 350yds = 12.5 inches
1Mil @ 400yds = 14 inches
1Mil @ 450yds = 16 inches
1Mil @ 500yds = 17.5 inches
1Mil @ 550yds = 19 inches
1Mil @ 600yds = 20 inches
1Mil @ 650yds = 23 inches
1Mil @ 1000yds= 36 inches

[bustr]

Today is another day...

List of tested aircraft cruise speed.

United States

Aircraft----Speed
F4F--------250 true
F4U1-------260 true
F4U1A------260 true
F4U1C------260 true
F4U1D------260 true
F4U-4------280 true
F6F-5------260 true
FM2--------225 true
P38G-------250 true
P38J-------250 true
P38L-------260 true
P39D-------250 true <--37mm T9 cannon Motor Cannon
P39Q-------250 true <--37mm T9 cannon Motor Cannon
P40C-------220 true
P40E-------240 true
P40F-------245 true
P40N-------250 true
P47D11-----290 true
P47D25-----290 true
P47D40-----290 true
P47M-------290 true
P47N-------290 true
P51B-------283 true
P51D-------285 true
----------------------------------------------------------------
Great Britain

Aircraft----Speed
HurriI-----210 true
HurriIIC---220 true
SpitI------285 true
SpitIIc----290 true
SpitV------280 true
SpitVIII---255 true
SpitIX-----250 true
SpitXIV----260 true
SpitXVI----260 true
MossiVI----255 true
TempestV---280 true
TyphoonIb--270 true
----------------------------------------------------------------
Germany

Aircraft----Speed
Bf109E4----240 true
Bf109F4----240 true <--Mg151/20 Motor Cannon
Bf109G2----280 true <--Mg151/20 Motor Cannon
Bf109G6----280 ture <--Mg151/20 Motor Cannon
Bf109G14---280 true <--Mg151/20 Motor Cannon
Bf109G14---290 true <--Mk108 30 Motor Cannon
Bf109K4----290 true <--Mk108 30 Motor Cannon
Bf110C4b---220 true
Bf110G2----250 true
FW190A5----275 true
Fw190A8----280 true
FW190D9----280 true
FW190F8----282 true
Ta152H1----275 true<--Mk108 30 Motor Cannon
Me163------420 true
Me262------300 true
----------------------------------------------------------------
Italy

Aircraft----Speed
C.202------265 true
C.205------295 true
----------------------------------------------------------------
Russia

Aircraft----Speed
I16--------255 true
La5--------275 true
La7--------275 ture
Yak9T------275 true <---NS-37 Motor Cannon
Yak9U------275 true <---ShVAK20 Motor cannon
----------------------------------------------------------------
Finland

Aircraft----Speed
Brewster---230 true
----------------------------------------------------------------
Japan

Aircraft----Speed
A6m2-------210 true
A6m3-------215 true
A6m5-------220 true
Ki61-------255 true
Ki84-------265 true
N1K2-------260 true

[Traveler]

I have a question,


 A 647 grain round is fired at approx 3,044 ft/s.
A 800 grain round is fired at approx 2,895 ft/s.

 These two figures are for a static shot, correct?  That is the guns are standing still at the time of the shot.  Not moving at 300 miles per hour through the air.  Is the speed of the gun, added to the speed of the round.   If I am sitting still, 0 airspeed and I fire one round the 647 grain round is going to be traveling at 3, 044 feet per second.  But if my aircraft is traveling at a ground speed of 300 miles per hour isn’t that speed added to the speed of the round?

thank you in advance.

[FLS]

That's correct and at altitude the air density is less which reduces the drag.

[Ten60]

I have a question,


 A 647 grain round is fired at approx 3,044 ft/s.
A 800 grain round is fired at approx 2,895 ft/s.

 These two figures are for a static shot, correct?  That is the guns are standing still at the time of the shot.  Not moving at 300 miles per hour through the air.  Is the speed of the gun, added to the speed of the round.   If I am sitting still, 0 airspeed and I fire one round the 647 grain round is going to be traveling at 3, 044 feet per second.  But if my aircraft is traveling at a ground speed of 300 miles per hour isn’t that speed added to the speed of the round?

thank you in advance.

This is correct, but remember that the additional speed would be added to either round equally.  That would make it's difference balance out (with exception of the drag coefficient that would reduce the speed of the faster round slightly faster).  300 mph=440ft/sec

[fuzeman]

Every round in Aces High is modeled using the historical information about the round (mass/weight) and the gun it is fired from (velocity).  It is physics driven and every round is modeled.

There is also a certain amount of gunshake modeled, which causes some drift of every round fired.  Some are worse (wing mounted guns) than others (cowl mounted guns).

Do not ask me about specific data for any given round as I have reached the pinnacle of my expertise, with this post, in this particular realm.

Do you happen to know the average airspeed of an unladen swallow?

[Ten60]

The below graph is a convergence from a specific plane in AH.  The actual y values are estimated using historical schematics of the plane to judge distance from the center-line of the plane.  X values are distance in yards.  The red box represents the area when all 6 bullet paths are inside the fuselage area.



Ok so many people are posting gunnery information, which I appreciate, but that is not the topic I was trying to get an answer to.  Maybe I wasn't clear enough.  I'm doing a "Convergence Study" to find a maximized setting.  Above you see what I'm talking about.  The blue box represents the fuselage of the target plane.  It has a 4 foot wide area, 2 feet from the center-line.  The purpose of the study is to find the maximum size of the red box (Where all 6 guns are inside the blue box).  Of course by setting the guns to 650 you find the largest naturally, but the spread would be far to wide at 200 to get a decent concentration of firepower.

Some would say, just set it at 200.  That's where you should be firing from anyway.  Well then a shot at 400 (As was shown in the Hun video) would be futile.  This shouldn't be surprising to anyone who understands geometry...  Whatever distance is twice your convergence is the distance which the path's are equal to the originating spread. 

So this is where the thought came from.  At what point is a shot at ~200 still damaging, yet I can also effectively hit someone at ~600??  Well the obvious choice would be 400.



This is the result of my study. The rounds enter the fuselage zone at 255 yards and exit at 545 when set @ 400.  So I started to think, how can I expand this box while leaving the target zone as close to 400 as possible, i.e. Maximize the red box.  My green set of lines enters @ 272 and exits @ 603.  17 yards later but stays in the zone for an additional 58 yards, for an extended effective range of 41 yards.

Now, you can all say, "Well they didn't do it in real life so why could this be right?"  It's probably not lol...  BUT I'm getting closer.  Not to mention IRL they didn't really pray and spray from 600 like we do in AH.  It's a totally different type of combat.

Now do you guys understand what I'm doing?  The reason for asking about the drop factors and weight was so that I could add in a z axis.

[shppr01]

Do you happen to know the average airspeed of an unladen swallow?

Would that be an African swallow or a European swallow ???

[The Fugitive]

Would that be an African swallow or a European swallow ???

ok, who had 2 hours and 9 minutes in the "African swallow or a European swallow post" pool?

[mtnman]

The below graph is a convergence from a specific plane in AH.  The actual y values are estimated using historical schematics of the plane to judge distance from the center-line of the plane.  X values are distance in yards.  The red box represents the area when all 6 bullet paths are inside the fuselage area.

(Image removed from quote.)

Ok so many people are posting gunnery information, which I appreciate, but that is not the topic I was trying to get an answer to.  Maybe I wasn't clear enough.  I'm doing a "Convergence Study" to find a maximized setting.  Above you see what I'm talking about.  The blue box represents the fuselage of the target plane.  It has a 4 foot wide area, 2 feet from the center-line.  The purpose of the study is to find the maximum size of the red box (Where all 6 guns are inside the blue box).  Of course by setting the guns to 650 you find the largest naturally, but the spread would be far to wide at 200 to get a decent concentration of firepower.

Some would say, just set it at 200.  That's where you should be firing from anyway.  Well then a shot at 400 (As was shown in the Hun video) would be futile.  This shouldn't be surprising to anyone who understands geometry...  Whatever distance is twice your convergence is the distance which the path's are equal to the originating spread.  

So this is where the thought came from.  At what point is a shot at ~200 still damaging, yet I can also effectively hit someone at ~600??  Well the obvious choice would be 400.

(Image removed from quote.)

This is the result of my study. The rounds enter the fuselage zone at 255 yards and exit at 545 when set @ 400.  So I started to think, how can I expand this box while leaving the target zone as close to 400 as possible, i.e. Maximize the red box.  My green set of lines enters @ 272 and exits @ 603.  17 yards later but stays in the zone for an additional 58 yards, for an extended effective range of 41 yards.

Now, you can all say, "Well they didn't do it in real life so why could this be right?"  It's probably not lol...  BUT I'm getting closer.  Not to mention IRL they didn't really pray and spray from 600 like we do in AH.  It's a totally different type of combat.

Now do you guys understand what I'm doing?  The reason for asking about the drop factors and weight was so that I could add in a z axis.

I did a bunch of testing along these lines a few years back also.  I think you're on the right track, but are missing out on a few key points.  The 400yd convergence is decent (and maybe even "best") if you're just trying to get some hits on your target, but is definitely not an "optimal" setting if you're more interested in making your MG's as effective as possible.

In AH, there's also an advantage to be gained if you can "know" when a target is at your convergence setting/distance, and are able to fire at that distance.  

You may get a longer/deeper "window" with a 400yd convergence setting, but it's very difficult to "know" when your target is at 400yds in game.  So while you're able to sprinkle hits on targets across that deep window, you'll only ever hit a plane at convergence distance by luck.  This keeps you sprinkling hits on your target, but never really maximizes the effectiveness of your guns.  The MG's in AH are not effective when sprinkled across a target, unless you get a lucky hit in on the pilot, etc...

When an icon tells you it's at 400 in AH, it's almost never at 400yds from you.  "D400" spans a 200yd distance in AH.  "D400" means the target is somewhere between 300 and 499 yards from you.This means that to fire at a target at 400yds (with your convergence set to 400) you need to use a different method to judge distance.  That can be done using your retical as a measuring aid, but that also means you need to compensate for every plane type, and every angle those planes could be fired at (amongst all of the other variables of course).  That's tough.

However, there are several distances where the icons give you a much better distance reference that can be used to "know" your target is at the proper distance for you to maximize your convergence settings.  These distances are the points where one icon switches to the next.  This happens at several potentially "useful" distances in AH.  It happens for example as the D0 icon switches to the D200 icon at 100yds distance from you.  And again at 300yds as the D200 icon switches to the D400 icon (and at 500 yards, and 700 yards).

Looking at those "sweet-spot" distances, you'll be able to utilize that info to it's max if you set your convergence at 100, 300, 500, or 700yards.  With wing-mounted guns, 100 is a terrible choice (look at the screenshots from the thread link I'll include).  Setting your convergence at 100yards will make you shoot way high on almost any target at "reasonable" ranges.  700 isn't a  possible setting in AH, but I think 650 is?  The problem with that setting is that it spreads your shots around too wide of an area across all "reasonable" distances (you're back to getting hits again, but not "effective" concentration of MG rounds on target).

That leaves 300 or 500 yard convergences as being potentially "optimal".  The first thing I noticed here was that on a 500yd target, my rounds were spread about equally whether I had my convergence set to 300 or 500 (no real advantage with either setting, although this is where I "should" have seen an advantage with a 500yd setting).  Most of my firing is done in the D200/D400 range, so it didn't look like it mattered all that much which setting I chose.  The effectiveness was the same, I just needed a slightly different aim-point for each setting.  

However, with a 300 yard setting I noticed a big difference.  300 convergence at 300 yards is a very effective setting.  500 convergence at 300 isn't as effective/concentrated.  Advantage 300...  At 500 yards with a 300yd convergence, once again there's not a huge advantage between either setting, but the 500yd convergence never has the concentration the 300 has.  Advantage 300 again...

The difference between the two settings is that with a 300yd setting, I can "know" my target is at the most effective range when I fire (an easy example is to come in behind an enemy at D600, and hold your fire as you move into D400, solidify your aim, and fire as the icon switches from D400 to D200; your target is at 300yds, maximizing the effectiveness of your 300yd convergence).  In reality, I find 275 to be "best" for me, regardless of the plane I fly.  Your rounds are also flying faster at 300 than they are at 500, so once again, advantage 300...

One factor at play here is the modeled-in dispersal of the rounds.  Due to this, the further out you set your convergence the less effective your rounds will be.  If you set your convergence at 200, and fire at 200, you'll do more damage than you would firing at 400yds with a 400yd convergence.  Even though both examples give the "best" effect for each convergence setting, the 400yd convergence causes less concentration, results in more misses, and does less damage.  Closer is better, until you reach the point where you're "too" close.


http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,291146.0.html

This isn't to say that 400 isn't the "best" option.  For you it may be.  For me (flying F4U predominately) it definitely isn't.  Looking best on paper doesn't always equate to best in reality (or the pseudo-reality we play with here).  I don't use a "standard" retical either, so that may play a role.  I use the smallest "dot" site I can find.  I don't really use it to aim with, it's just there as a reference point, and I don't use it to judge distance or lead.

[Badboy]

Yes, it is 32.2 ft/s/s.

It's not that simple, the vertical acceleration of a ballistic object varies during the time of flight depending on several factors, if it was always 32.2 ft/s/s there would be no such thing as terminal velocity, when it gets very close to zero ft/s/s.

Badboy