IS line of tanks...............

[Butcher]

Those numbers seem a bit high for 1000m.

I've never seen any source put the 122mm at up over 192mm of penetration at 100m range. Highest I've seen for the BS-3 100mm was actually 204mm at 100m.

Maybe double check your numbers, but something seems off there.

Sources:
Russian Tanks and Armored Vehicles 1917-1945, by Wolfgang Fleischer, 1999
Osprey Vangard IS-2 Heavy Tank 1944

Osprey puts the 122mm AP round at 150-160mm penetration at 1000 meters, thats 10-20 higher then the book above says, so I would say its about close, considering two sources list it quite close, then again getting actual russian information is extremely tasking, I haven't found two tables that are the same..yet.
1944 tanks did carry APHE rounds, which were used for Tigers/Panthers/King Tigers if needed, thus why it had over 200mm armor penetration but dropped off terribly after 1,000 yards.

[Tank-Ace]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't the russian APHE the same as other nation's, in that it was just an AP round with an HE component that would burst after armor was penetrated? Extreme penetration drop off at extended ranges is usually associated with APCR rounds.

Also, you say they were carried for use against the Panther and Tigers, would those  make up a significant portion of their ammunition compliment, or would it be something like HVAP, where only a few rounds were carried for emergency situations?



As to the Russian data, I wouldn't bother looking for two sources that state the same thing. God only knows exactly how thourough they were with their initial testing. And after 80+ years of what wasn't the best organized political system god ever made, I would be amazed if complete testing data remains for the various versions and ammunitions. A big reason why we have such good data for German weapons is because of the testing Allied nations did on captured weapons.


A better method might be to find data from a western source, or perhaps from Yugoslavia, as they did post-war testing of various weapons from both sides (Although I'd be leery of the data you get from them, as they also stated that the KwK 40 L'48 was inferior to both the US M1 76mm and the Russian 85mm firing typical wartime ammunition). Then just convert that over to Russian data and check for the sources that most closely match the numbers you come up with.

[Butcher]

A better method might be to find data from a western source, or perhaps from Yugoslavia, as they did post-war testing of various weapons from both sides (Although I'd be leery of the data you get from them, as they also stated that the KwK 40 L'48 was inferior to both the US M1 76mm and the Russian 85mm firing typical wartime ammunition). Then just convert that over to Russian data and check for the sources that most closely match the numbers you come up with.

I have roughly 1400 books or PDF files total, if I don't already have it - I can probably get it for a price (meaning some things are out of print and require some serious cheese). Thus saying, I've scoured the internet for russian information, anything from AAR's to biographies and come up pretty short.
What little information I can get is what I can consider source unless someone can prove otherwise, maybe its correct - maybe its not, I can't exactly say otherwise until I do the research and with thousands of topics you simply cannot get every bit of information.
Unlike TracerFI or some of the others who quickly scan through wikipedia and post "the me262 was a post war aircraft" I actually do research broadly and try to come to an answer or solution with sources.

Far as I am concerned the information I have is pretty correct, it might seem far fetched, but I see no other source that says 200mm at 1,000 yards is out of the question. In my best opinion I don't think the IS-2 needed an AP round to kill a Tank at 1,000 yards - a HE round would give enough concussion blow to a tank to blow the turret off, and there is plenty of evidence that it has happened. Just like one example of a Panzer III which fired over 40 rounds at a KV-1 tank and could not penetrate the tank, finally the gunner decided to shoot the KV-1's barrel to disable the tank. Maybe its true or false, its pretty tough to sit down and ask the tankers themselves when they passed away before I was even born.

[Tank-Ace]

I have roughly 1400 books or PDF files total, if I don't already have it - I can probably get it for a price (meaning some things are out of print and require some serious cheese). Thus saying, I've scoured the internet for russian information, anything from AAR's to biographies and come up pretty short.
What little information I can get is what I can consider source unless someone can prove otherwise, maybe its correct - maybe its not, I can't exactly say otherwise until I do the research and with thousands of topics you simply cannot get every bit of information.
Unlike TracerFI or some of the others who quickly scan through wikipedia and post "the me262 was a post war aircraft" I actually do research broadly and try to come to an answer or solution with sources.

Not saying you haven't done your research. I'm saying its entirely possible your data is off, because your source is using wartime Soviet data, suceptible to human error, low quality testing, and propoganda.

Far as I am concerned the information I have is pretty correct, it might seem far fetched, but I see no other source that says 200mm at 1,000 yards is out of the question. In my best opinion I don't think the IS-2 needed an AP round to kill a Tank at 1,000 yards - a HE round would give enough concussion blow to a tank to blow the turret off, and there is plenty of evidence that it has happened. Just like one example of a Panzer III which fired over 40 rounds at a KV-1 tank and could not penetrate the tank, finally the gunner decided to shoot the KV-1's barrel to disable the tank. Maybe its true or false, its pretty tough to sit down and ask the tankers themselves when they passed away before I was even born.

As far as I'm concerned, the data is questionable, but still within reasonable bounds, depending on the construction of the round in question.


All I'm saying is that finding some independent (ie, non-soviet) source confirming the numbers would be a good idea, so that we don't have some over modeled IS-2 all because the Soviets wanted to impress people.




And again, why exactly did the APHE shells have significantly higher drop in penetration at long range (a characteristic usually associated with HVAP or APCR rounds)? And how many were typically carried?