Deputies shoot, kill man after knocking on wrong door

[SEraider]

I'm sure the police officers won't get in trouble for anything...usually never do even if they are at fault. The police will feed the news anything they want us to hear...considering the other side of the story is nonexistent.

Unless the deceased lived with someone that heard or saw something.  I disagree that there was fault on both sides as the article states.  I wonder if the police identified themselves properly, would have the deceased open the door with a gun pointing to their face?   

[Spikes]

I doubt it. I also wonder why there are 10 bullet holes in the door when it was "open".

[rogwar]

The only thing certain about this is we probably will never know the facts, how things exactly went down that night. We human beings are biased, whether intentionally or not in varying degrees, and that modifies the way we see things and in our memories of events. That sort of naturally occurring bias will also affect the investigation.

Law enforcement generally wants to build a case against criminals. Law enforcement does not generally want to build a case against their own. Again this can include intentional bias as well as just the way we human beings are in terms of perception beyond our deliberate control.

For example in relation to "Law enforcement does not generally want to build a case against their own.", how are internal affairs officers/personnel generally perceived? There you have it.

[Rich46yo]

For example in relation to "Law enforcement does not generally want to build a case against their own.", how are internal affairs officers/personnel generally perceived? There you have it.

Well we perceive them, at least we grunts with no political clout, as hangmen who will diligently work to stick it up our rear ends, "they have to make their numbers somehow too", and whom generally never even saw a statue of a Lady balancing justice. Besides, most beefs end up administrative anyways so our only recourse is to take our suspensions/firings, maybe some time on the rubber gun squad, and hope that years down the line our civil suit has a jury that hasnt read to many anti Police headlines and gives us justice.

Big city chiefs have to respond to to many bad headlines by showing pie charts that show suspensions, firings, and "findings against", are up. Its not really a case of justice and the real trick is to tip toe thru 20 to 30 years trying to stay off the pie charts. The entire time trying to do some good and risking that same rear end, IAD wants to get ahold of, to serve and protect your fellows while avoiding not only the pie chart but also the Officer Down Memorial sight.

Besides every shooting investigation, at the least, has civilian board overview.

[rogwar]

Well we perceive them, at least we grunts with no political clout, as hangmen who will diligently work to stick it up our rear ends, "they have to make their numbers somehow too", and whom generally never even saw a statue of a Lady balancing justice. Besides, most beefs end up administrative anyways so our only recourse is to take our suspensions/firings, maybe some time on the rubber gun squad, and hope that years down the line our civil suit has a jury that hasnt read to many anti Police headlines and gives us justice.

Big city chiefs have to respond to to many bad headlines by showing pie charts that show suspensions, firings, and "findings against", are up. Its not really a case of justice and the real trick is to tip toe thru 20 to 30 years trying to stay off the pie charts. The entire time trying to do some good and risking that same rear end, IAD wants to get ahold of, to serve and protect your fellows while avoiding not only the pie chart but also the Officer Down Memorial sight.

Besides every shooting investigation, at the least, has civilian board overview.

Yep those are the every day bs details you guys have to deal with. I think that kind of confirms my point about there being a negative perception toward such.

The overall point I'm trying to make is that we are all fallible and have bias. Even that civilian review board is going to have bias. This event sort of reminds me of the typical airplane crash where a series of mistakes lead to a deadly conclusion. When a police officer makes a mistake the outcome can be very serious as in this case.

Remember thousands of arrests and investigations happen every day in the USA where an "innocent" person is not harmed.  

It's also important to note that sometimes truly innocent people are convicted and go to jail even with the best intentions of all those involved. The human factor.

[ink]

My interpretation of the event is not in what the media is spewing out to get their ratings. It’s with the admission of the facts from the officers on scene.
1.   They did not acknowledge themselves as law enforcement when knocking on an undetermined residence at 1:30 am. Add to the fact that this isn’t the best of neighborhoods.
2.   They had no probable cause to knock on the door. They made this determination because they saw the motorcycle parked in the parking lot and decided to bang on the closest door they found. Chasing bad guys doesn’t give them probable cause to enter your home or attack a citizen based on the facts they had at the time.
3.   One innocent US citizen is shot dead in his own home.
4.   They didn’t even know they gunned down the wrong guy for an hour and a half. This is just unconceivable to me.

This has nothing to do with bashing cops. This has everything to do with our rights as citizens. You can play devil’s advocate all day about how the guy should have done this or that but you can’t beat the facts.

At the end of the day an innocent man was shot and killed in his own home. This is why we have procedures (or supposed to have) to protect innocent civilians. If we take the position of (oh well, the guy shouldn’t of done this or he should of called 911, or he should have looked out his peep hole) then where will we be 10 years from now.

What’s next, proper procedure for families to answer their own doors or the police have the right to gun you down?

This sounds more like a bad remake of  Tango and Cash

QFT

[MarineUS]

No he had a gun pointed at whoever was knocking on his door in the middle of the night. Your line of thinking is just what caused this problem. If the police are afraid to do their jobs.... they need to find another line of work. The job of a police officer is dangerous enough without these types on board.

The guy answering the door should have called 911 then stayed inside.

Of course the poorly trained officers at the door probably would have caved the door in forcing the guy to start shooting.

Cops are people too. Never go to thinking they are better or worse than the general population.

So in the end you can ignore my opinion and others and possibly in the future you can be one of these poorly trained cops too.


Real shame is that the poor folks in that town now have to protect themselves from the thugs on the street and the thugs in uniform.

So you admit the guy is wrong for opening the door the way he did?

BTW: He probably poked his head out with the gun through the crack. That SCREAMS "Hey, I can shoot you and have a door to hide behind."

You can call me poorly trained but I know for a FACT that I've received more training than you will ever dream of getting. As far as the officers? I can't claim to be better than them. Some of them may very well of had the same training I received. I've noticed folks who hate on the actions of police officers are normally doing something they shouldn't be in the first place. So what is it that you do that you aren't proud of?

Thugs in uniform? The man had a gun. I'm leaving it at that. Plain and simple. Your life wasn't on the line. Theirs was. I doubt you've been in a situation even close to this. Your wife gripping your balls and telling you to stop being a sweety doesn't count. You've clearly lost your grip on reality and therefore will no longer receive a reply from me. You live in a world where the police are always evil and should take every precaution possible when something goes wrong. Guess what? In serious situations; you think, you die.

You're trained to react when there is a weapon pointed at you. When we searched the huts in Afghan, if someone had a weapon pointed at us guess what? They went down. What if they were a child? Who cares. Kid points an AK at one of us, he won't get to be an adult. Does it suck? Yes. Does it haunt you? Yes. Do you wish it could have gone down differently? Yes.

In the end, a bullet travels faster than you can think about options. Anyone who hasn't been in a situation where your life was on the line really has no say in this type of situation.

Yes, people are entitled to their opinions but it pisses me off to no end when I see people ridiculing the officers for reacting when someone decided to pop a gun out that doorway.

Hell, come knock on my door and let me point a gun at you. I wanna see how you react. Btw: When you do it - I'll give you two seconds before I start firing aimlessly into my yard. You get two seconds more than most people who are in those situations that way.

I wanna see how people will react to that.

---

It doesn't matter whether or not they said "POLICE!" when they knocked. No normal human should open a door at 1:30 AM for someone they don't know, let alone with a gun. It's common sense.

*Sitting on couch watching movies with the woman at 1:30 in the morning* -BAM BAM BAM- "Who the f---?" *Grabs gun, opens door with gun pointed out the opening*

Yeah....being a badarse sure paid off. Was he planning on being Rambo? No. But he was willing to open the door with a gun in a bad neighborhood.

[Shuffler]

So you admit the guy is wrong for opening the door the way he did?

BTW: He probably poked his head out with the gun through the crack. That SCREAMS "Hey, I can shoot you and have a door to hide behind."

You can call me poorly trained but I know for a FACT that I've received more training that you will ever dream of getting. As far as the officers? I can't claim to be better than them. Some of them may very well of had the same training I received. I've noticed folks who hate on the actions of police officers are normally doing something they shouldn't be in the first place. So what is it that you do that you aren't proud of?

Thugs in uniform? The man had a gun. I'm leaving it at that. Plain and simple. Your life wasn't on the line. Theirs was. I doubt you've been in a situation even close to this. Your wife gripping your balls and telling you to stop being a sweety doesn't count. You've clearly lost your grip on reality and therefore will no longer receive a reply from me. You live in a world where the police are always evil and should take every precaution possible when something goes wrong. Guess what? In serious situations; you think, you die.

You're trained to react when there is a weapon pointed at you. When we searched the huts in Afghan, if someone had a weapon pointed at us guess what? They went down. What if they were a child? Who cares. Kid points an AK at one of us, he won't get to be an adult. Does it suck? Yes. Does it haunt you? Yes. Do you wish it could have gone down differently? Yes.

In the end, a bullet travels faster than you can think about options. Anyone who hasn't been in a situation where your life was on the line really has no say in this type of situation.

Yes, people are entitled to their opinions but it pisses me off to no end when I see people ridiculing the officers for reacting when someone decided to pop a gun out that doorway.

Hell, come knock on my door and let me point a gun at you. I wanna see how you react. Btw: When you do it - I'll give you two seconds before I start firing aimlessly into my yard. You get two seconds more than most people who are in those situations that way.

I wanna see how people will react to that.

---

It doesn't matter whether or not they said "POLICE!" when they knocked. No normal human should open a door at 1:30 AM for someone they don't know, let alone with a gun. It's common sense.

*Sitting on couch watching movies with the woman at 1:30 in the morning* -BAM BAM BAM- "Who the f---?" *Grabs gun, opens door with gun pointed out the opening*

Yeah....being a badarse sure paid off. Was he planning on being Rambo? No. But he was willing to open the door with a gun in a bad neighborhood.

There were a lot of wrongs. All starting with poorly trained officers. They set the whole thing in motion and then did not identify themselves. Had someone else been in the house you may have had several dead cops. The cops were concerned for their safety and no ne elses. At least based on what this story says.

I stand by my statements. Based on your posts so far I'd say your train of thought is more a part of the problem than the cure. They need to admit they made a huge mistake in handling their assult on an individuals home.

Any idiot that bangs on the door at 1:30 in the morning should be ready to see anything. If it did happen as the story goes... I hope they are charged with murder. They sure are not officers that law abiding citizens would want patroling the streets.

[COndor06]

I've noticed folks who hate on the actions of police officers are normally doing something they shouldn't be in the first place. So what is it that you do that you aren't proud of?

Thugs in uniform? The man had a gun. I'm leaving it at that. Plain and simple.

You're trained to react when there is a weapon pointed at you. When we searched the huts in Afghan, if someone had a weapon pointed at us guess what? They went down.

It doesn't matter whether or not they said "POLICE!" when they knocked. No normal human should open a door at 1:30 AM for someone they don't know, let alone with a gun. It's common sense.

First off, we aren’t in Afghanistan so I am not sure how that relates. I do however thank you for your service and so much appreciate any individual that dedicates themselves to the preservation of others through their own dedication of service.

However, if you decide that a career in law enforcement is what you want to pursue then you have the obligation and duty to defend the general public. You swear an oath to this fact and I am sure protect and serve are involved in this process. If you don’t have the courage (which is what it takes to be in that line of work) then get out. Somehow this has become twisted. How did we get to shooting first and asking questions later?

If you don’t possess the mentality or decision making ability to do the job without putting innocent lives and other officers at stake for your own self-preservation then you shouldn’t be wearing the uniform.

This cop brotherhood thing doesn’t pass muster with me guys.

I have been involved with law enforcement on many levels throughout my career and I have seen good and bad alike. I have no animosity toward law enforcement and would like to think that my family and I are safe because of their presence. What scares me are comments about this situation that don’t take into consideration how this could have been avoided.

We tend to see more comments along the lines of how the guy answered the door or he was a drug user. I guess this means he got what he deserved. This is what scares me. Let’s not take the time to see how we could have done this better and focus on the fact that it was a clean shooting because the guy had a gun.

In my opinion, if you want to wear the badge then you should have the pride in yourself, common decency, and the guts to put yourself in harm’s way for the preservation of civilian life instead of making excuses for a bad call.

They were at an unknown residence in the middle of the night. Instead of calling for backup and announcing their intentions to give the occupant (and law enforcement) to make the proper call, they decided to handle this themselves.

You can cry about how the guy had a gun but you know what, he has the right to have a gun and the fact that you are a (supposedly) trained police officer doesn’t afford you the right to gun him down in your own defense. Sorry.

If the situation was reversed and I came to your house, knocked on your door at 2 am and gunned you down because you had a gun, I would be innocent? Just because you are a cop doesn’t change the facts.

Your supposed to be the only one in this situation that has the proper training and this is the best you have to offer. I would prefer you go practice your tactics in another country. 

If law enforcement goes down the road of (this was an authorized shooting) instead of this is how we could have prevented the situation then you will we see continued separation between Law Enforcement and Civilians.

[MarineUS]

It relates in the sense we weren't their to kill everyone. We were there to help them and keep the area secure (ie prevent violence etc.). We pretty much were police.

As and officer, or any job that carries with it the weight that your life could be ended in a split second, you react on the fact there is a gun at you and the current situation. There were reports of someone who attempted to crush the skull of another victim. This guy would obviously off an officer if given the chance. This means there is pretty much a cop killer on the loose, then this bonehead decides to open his door with a gun in his hand.

It's a sad situation and it sucks it happened. Protect and Serve is a big thing.

Answering a door with a gun isn't really the brightest idea. Like many have said; answering a door at 1:30AM was a bad idea anyway. 

I wish it could have gone down differently but it happens. They left themselves unannounced for good reason, but that's no excuse to open your door with a gun pointed out.


---

Sad thing that happened but in the end, we learn to not open the door that late or with a gun lol.

[guncrasher]

usmarine you were in a combat zone and anybody with a gun would be considering the enemy, right or wrong.  however here in the usa we are not in a combat zone and we expect to be safe in our own homes. and we are guaranteed the right to defend our homes.  police cannot just show up in any house they feel like at 1 am and expect not to see somebody with a gun at  the door.  they should've known better.

semp

[MarineUS]

usmarine you were in a combat zone and anybody with a gun would be considering the enemy, right or wrong.  however here in the usa we are not in a combat zone and we expect to be safe in our own homes. and we are guaranteed the right to defend our homes.  police cannot just show up in any house they feel like at 1 am and expect not to see somebody with a gun at  the door.  they should've known better.

semp

And any person shouldn't have to worry about being shot just because they knocked on a door.

It works both ways.



EDIT: And not anyone with a gun in Afghan is hostile....just the ones who like to do the "pointy - shooty" stuff. 

[COndor06]

And any person shouldn't have to worry about being shot just because they knocked on a door.

It works both ways.

Just because they knocked on a door? Really? You are going to break this down to that?

Let me break this down for you.

How about knocking on a door of an apartment, in a crime infested complex, that you have never been to before, in the middle of the night, without announcing yourself, on a door you have no idea who is on the other side.

This coming from the guy who posted, (and I am quoting here)

 (When we searched the huts in Afghan, if someone had a weapon pointed at us guess what? They went down. What if they were a child? Who cares. Kid points an AK at one of us, he won't get to be an adult.)

If you think you should be safe in that situation, your just being a bit naive.

[MarineUS]

Just because they knocked on a door? Really? You are going to break this down to that?

Let me break this down for you.

How about knocking on a door of an apartment, in a crime infested complex, that you have never been to before, in the middle of the night, without announcing yourself, on a door you have no idea who is on the other side.

This coming from the guy who posted, (and I am quoting here)

 (When we searched the huts in Afghan, if someone had a weapon pointed at us guess what? They went down. What if they were a child? Who cares. Kid points an AK at one of us, he won't get to be an adult.)

If you think you should be safe in that situation, your just being a bit naive.

Not saying anyone should think they were safe.

It was a bad neighborhood with some bad folks running around.

That doesn't mean the guy should have opened the door with a gun pointed out of it like he was gonna be the next Scarface.

[SEraider]

Answering a door with a gun isn't really the brightest idea. Like many have said; answering a door at 1:30AM was a bad idea anyway. 
 

This is what most people don't understand, even if the police identifies themselves as police, you are not obligated to open that door for anyone (unless a search warrant is announced).  People are not required to speak to the police as part of their rights, set aside anything what a good samaritan would do to help.  I would not answer the door either at those hours.

This is off topic of course for this original thread.