Author Topic: No fly Zones  (Read 1226 times)

Offline CAP1

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Re: No fly Zones
« Reply #15 on: August 22, 2012, 08:45:24 AM »
 reason for the no-fly zone........one time only, although i know you all know why it's there.

 in the case of my set, all allied aircraft launched from england. they climbed to altitude over the channel. they were at full speed, fully formed up, and had a fighter sweep out in front of them long before they reached germany. this is impossible for us to do, if for no other reason, than the 2 hour time limit.
 on egress, the allies would've been followed, and harassed for a couple hundred miles, but never would the luftwaffe have followed them all the way to the channel, much less crossed it to england. if for no other reason, than fuel, so to adapt, we launched from bases in europe. the no-fly simulated the channel, as best as we could make it.

 it's not perfect, but it works. it lets us keep some history in the set, with allowances for flyability within our sim.

 the funny thing is when i look at the numbers........our cartoon world pretty closely simulated the real thing.

 i'm effing proud of the way this set went, to be honest.  i'm also pretty dam proud to have been asked to join the cm team.

 i'm glad you guys all enjoyed it, and i hope to make my next one better for you guys.  :salute

 that's all i have to say, and i'm out of this one now.  :salute :cheers:
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Offline kilo2

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Re: No fly Zones
« Reply #16 on: August 22, 2012, 08:57:19 AM »
The fact that you can make a statement that it was no fun for anybody seems a bit strong.  I had a lot of folks who enjoyed it.  As I said it was a hard lesson learned and certainly was my mistake in listening to all the bbs experts.

In terms of no fly zones most definitely there were.  The difference is when you don't have the numbers to create them with a boatload of fighters that would have been there to cover the withdrawal you have to improvise.  There was a reason the LW was hiding their fighters in the trees while the Allies weren't. 

You are flying Allied in DGS Sukov.  Do you think you'll see as much action and get as many sorties in as Perdweeb flying Axis?  How do you balance that?  Or is the trade off the different experience you'll get flying that Jug?  Do you think it will be fair?

No I will not get as many I know for a fact. I have already argued my position on the upcoming scenario. I am flying jugs for a different experience although that doesn't have any bearing in this conversation.

reason for the no-fly zone........one time only, although i know you all know why it's there.

 in the case of my set, all allied aircraft launched from england. they climbed to altitude over the channel. they were at full speed, fully formed up, and had a fighter sweep out in front of them long before they reached germany. this is impossible for us to do, if for no other reason, than the 2 hour time limit.
 on egress, the allies would've been followed, and harassed for a couple hundred miles, but never would the luftwaffe have followed them all the way to the channel, much less crossed it to england. if for no other reason, than fuel, so to adapt, we launched from bases in europe. the no-fly simulated the channel, as best as we could make it.

 it's not perfect, but it works. it lets us keep some history in the set, with allowances for flyability within our sim.

 the funny thing is when i look at the numbers........our cartoon world pretty closely simulated the real thing.

 i'm effing proud of the way this set went, to be honest.  i'm also pretty dam proud to have been asked to join the cm team.

 i'm glad you guys all enjoyed it, and i hope to make my next one better for you guys.  :salute

 that's all i have to say, and i'm out of this one now.  :salute :cheers:

Well half the map does not simulate the channel. Nor does having targets a sector away from the no fly zone. I understand fly no fly zones I really do just not how much space they need.

I see you have picked up the same lines as guppy and others "the numbers seem close so that validates the setup." No truth to that.
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Offline VonMessa

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Re: No fly Zones
« Reply #17 on: August 22, 2012, 09:06:55 AM »
This thread is awesome!

Someone please tell me again why one side is afforded an opportunity to vulch landing aircraft while the other must remain miles and miles away from their opponent's bases after the action has commenced?

Something as simple as a no vulching, period, rule may balance this issue.

No-fly for beginning of frame is fine and understandable but having a "safety net" to run back to after running out of bombs will be taken advantage of.  If you get caught with your pants down on the way home, you planned your egress point poorly.

In fact, why make them land at all?  Why not just bail after crossing the threshold of the no-fly zone instead of flying the extra dozens of miles back to the field in a straight line with nothing else to do?  If the luft flyers do not have enough gas to make it back, sorry but no landing or team points for him, poo poo on your poor fuel management.
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Offline Guppy35

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Re: No fly Zones
« Reply #18 on: August 22, 2012, 09:13:20 AM »
So just for fun design me a fair and balanced 1944 8th vs the Luftwaffe just so I can understand how it's done.  You speak in such absolutes that you clearly have thought this through.  I genuinely would like to see it.  Just one frame is enough.  Maybe march 6, 1944 to Berlin.  Naturally everyone will have the same opportunities for the "win".

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Offline kilo2

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Re: No fly Zones
« Reply #19 on: August 22, 2012, 09:16:26 AM »
So just for fun design me a fair and balanced 1944 8th vs the Luftwaffe just so I can understand how it's done.  You speak in such absolutes that you clearly have thought this through.  I genuinely would like to see it.  Just one frame is enough.  Maybe march 6, 1944 to Berlin.  Naturally everyone will have the same opportunities for the "win".



Ok take a marker and change the no fly zone to maybe 2 sectors in the back. Ta-Da!
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Offline Guppy35

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Re: No fly Zones
« Reply #20 on: August 22, 2012, 09:29:18 AM »
Are you suggesting fuel management wasn't an issue for the Luftwaffe?  There was a reason they were not vulching Allied fields.  Part of that was range. Where is the battle taking place Von messa?  

Just say it.  You want a dead even 50/50 battle on a neutral map with the only the plane sets being historical.  Again that's all good if that's what FSO's are about.  I don't believe they are. I know scenarios aren't going to be that way, nor should they be.

I'm done with this.  I do look forward to seeing that all encompassing design to educate me however.  And I remind myself often that it's the same guys with all the answers that do most of the complaining.  
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Offline kilo2

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Re: No fly Zones
« Reply #21 on: August 22, 2012, 09:52:20 AM »
Are you suggesting fuel management wasn't an issue for the Luftwaffe?  There was a reason they were not vulching Allied fields.  Part of that was range. Where is the battle taking place Von messa?  

Just say it.  You want a dead even 50/50 battle on a neutral map with the only the plane sets being historical.  Again that's all good if that's what FSO's are about.  I don't believe they are. I know scenarios aren't going to be that way, nor should they be.

I'm done with this.  I do look forward to seeing that all encompassing design to educate me however.  And I remind myself often that it's the same guys with all the answers that do most of the complaining.  

Ha! Well ok then take your ball and go home. We want fun if that is a bad thing to you then so be it. You jump to the extreme end of the argument just like "the guys with all the answers" you claim we are. The entire design was not flawed just the no fly zone.

You know there is a fuel burn rate option.

This thread may be proof of a certain persons post about certain people.
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Offline captain1ma

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Re: No fly Zones
« Reply #22 on: August 22, 2012, 10:01:53 AM »
JG54 didn't have a problem with the no fly zone. JG54 skirted the edge of it and did not cross it. wasn't a problem. we had fun and we understood the no fly zone. made the whole setup more interesting as far as I'm concerned.

Offline VonMessa

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Re: No fly Zones
« Reply #23 on: August 22, 2012, 10:04:50 AM »
I may speak in absolutes, but your patronizing me is not any less worthy of rebuking.

     As someone in a position of "authority", I don't expect you to patronize me or foist the responsibilities that you have volunteered to burden upon me or other players with on off-handed "Let's see if you can do better".  If I wanted that responsibility, I would have volunteered to be a CM.

     I, as a player, count upon you to hear the ideas of the special events community and take their ideas into account when designing the events and not simply dismiss them while offering a smug "That's the way it is and that's the way it will be" explanation.  If there is more than one person, or a group of people that would like to see some tweaking in some areas, it just might be worth listening to.  While I understand that there cannot be scenarios, or special events, with a CM team also bear in mind that these things need a player base to exist, as well.  In addition, for these events to flourish, you need a semi-happy player base.  Everyone here is a volunteer, including the guys in the "cheap seats" so please stop patronizing me, or anyone else and act like a leader instead of trying to veil insults, sarcasm and facetiousness in soft language such as:
So just for fun design me a fair and balanced 1944 8th vs the Luftwaffe just so I can understand how it's done.  You speak in such absolutes that you clearly have thought this through.  I genuinely would like to see it.  Just one frame is enough.  Maybe march 6, 1944 to Berlin.  Naturally everyone will have the same opportunities for the "win".



     As a leader, I expect more from you.  On the other hand, don't expect it from me.  After all, I am only one of the guys in the "cheap seats" and would not be expected to held accountable to the same standards as someone that has been volunteered to be a leader.

     If ones flies in scenarios for "the win", one has already lost.

     There is nothing to "win".  If there must be some quantification of winning, it would have to be based upon the level of fun and excitement everyone has during the event.  The players that play to "win" are the ones that traditionally try to bend, push or otherwise test the limits of the rules and do whatever they can to earn the most points for the big "W", which may be fine for the MA, but is akin to pissing on everyone that participates in special events.

     Chasing NOE buffs on the edges of maps, watch-dogging those violating alt-caps, having to track how many lives someone has used and chasing foes to a certain point where they are free and clear from engagement are all examples of the type of "win" behavior that have been observed in special events and can be detrimental to the whole concept of what having fun in a scenario is all about.

     Those types of behavior, or limiting factors in an event is what makes me want to set-aside those few hours on a Saturday afternoon for quality time with my family instead of wasting my time bickering about who broke which rules.  

     A concept that you, as a parent, can surely relate to.
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Offline Guppy35

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Re: No fly Zones
« Reply #24 on: August 22, 2012, 10:28:42 AM »
Von that you would assume that all those things aren't taken into account is too bad because they are.  It gets tiring when you see the effort folks put into these things and it's the same guys griping no matter what you do.  What I wish for just a second is that they'd look at the overall picture and not just is fun for them.

My mistake was the same one I always make and that is thinking that discussing it would ever make a difference.  Cap worked his tail off on this and got input from all kinds of people.  And yep everyone is doing it on their own time to try and contribute something back to the game. 


Since you described exactly what events mean to me, then you understand the frustration.  And again my mistake was engaging in the discussion with folks who consistently find fault and rarely seem to appreciate the effort folks put in to make these things go.  And that is why I said I'm done with it.  I respect your opinion so I figure you deserve a reply
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Offline VonMessa

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Re: No fly Zones
« Reply #25 on: August 22, 2012, 10:39:36 AM »
Von that you would assume that all those things aren't taken into account is too bad because they are.  It gets tiring when you see the effort folks put into these things and it's the same guys griping no matter what you do.  What I wish for just a second is that they'd look at the overall picture and not just is fun for them.

My mistake was the same one I always make and that is thinking that discussing it would ever make a difference.  Cap worked his tail off on this and got input from all kinds of people.  And yep everyone is doing it on their own time to try and contribute something back to the game. 


Since you described exactly what events mean to me, then you understand the frustration.  And again my mistake was engaging in the discussion with folks who consistently find fault and rarely seem to appreciate the effort folks put in to make these things go.  And that is why I said I'm done with it.  I respect your opinion so I figure you deserve a reply


As an aficionado of military history, I know you understand the concept of how gripes go uphill, not downhill.    :)

I appreciate the effort and time that the designers put into the projects to put them together.

I also appreciate the same from the players that make it "go".

Folks will complain.  It is part of being a leader.  It's the crappy part. 

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Offline kilo2

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Re: No fly Zones
« Reply #26 on: August 22, 2012, 10:49:44 AM »
Von that you would assume that all those things aren't taken into account is too bad because they are.  It gets tiring when you see the effort folks put into these things and it's the same guys griping no matter what you do.  What I wish for just a second is that they'd look at the overall picture and not just is fun for them.

My mistake was the same one I always make and that is thinking that discussing it would ever make a difference.  Cap worked his tail off on this and got input from all kinds of people.  And yep everyone is doing it on their own time to try and contribute something back to the game. 


Since you described exactly what events mean to me, then you understand the frustration.  And again my mistake was engaging in the discussion with folks who consistently find fault and rarely seem to appreciate the effort folks put in to make these things go.  And that is why I said I'm done with it.  I respect your opinion so I figure you deserve a reply


You assume a lot.
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Offline FBDragon

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Re: No fly Zones
« Reply #27 on: August 22, 2012, 07:02:55 PM »
Really?  I don't know about Perdue...but YES...I know I want to follow the enemy out and nail his arse when he's landing.  Just like this from last night:


aztec
23:24:23 Departed from Field #52 in a Fw 190A-8
00:12:01 Takes on fuel/ammo/ord at field #47.
00:33:21 Helps Stampf shoot down Badmood.
00:39:54 Helps Ernst21 shoot down McTunes.
00:43:38 Was shot down by 12High (exploded).


8 of us were gear down and landing when the vultching 38's came in.  Az couldn't tower in time. 

If you want to pick a fight or argue an opinion, at least keep it real.  Better yet...just keep it real.

 


Lets see, I van remember 1 FSO the allies did just that. They followed us to our field and vulchede us on landing so I say get rid of the no fly zones and let it be to the squads Co's discretion.
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Offline Hopper

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Re: No fly Zones
« Reply #28 on: August 22, 2012, 09:20:34 PM »
Lets see, I van remember 1 FSO the allies did just that. They followed us to our field and vulchede us on landing so I say get rid of the no fly zones and let it be to the squads Co's discretion.


I can think of a few times axes has done it too  :devil
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Offline FBDragon

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Re: No fly Zones
« Reply #29 on: August 22, 2012, 11:13:41 PM »
I'm sure :devil
Kommando Nowotny
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