turn comparison

[titanic3]

I haven't ran into any Jug pilots that left an impression. The few times I flew it, if the initial overshoot/tailslide doesn't work, you're pretty much screwed against almost all of the other planes.

[Badboy]

Badboy, I suppose this is without flaps? With flaps included, I expect the extra horses of the M to give an even more pronounced advantage.

Hi Bozon

Yes, that was without flaps. The turning performance of the P-47M across the full range of flaps for both instantaneous and sustained turns is shown in the diagrams below.

For most of the P-47 series of aircraft, while the turn radius gets smaller as flaps are lowered, the sustained turn rate deteriorates. However, the P-47M is the exception, and in the configuration analysed below, you can see that there is an improvement in both radius and instantaneous turn rate upto 2 notches of flaps. The maximum sustained turn occurs with 1 notch of flaps, but with 2 notches of flaps the sustained turn rate is only slightly worse, but with a significant improvement in radius, so overall the optimum turning configuration for the P-47M is with 2 notches of flaps.

You can see in this first diagram that the maximum instantaneous turn rate occurs with 2 notches of flaps, however it is important to remember that the benefit of instantaneous turn performance is only short lived because speed will drop rapidly to the sustained turning situation illustrated in the second diagram.



In the second diagram below you can see that the maximum sustained turn actually occurs with one notch of flaps, but at two notches the radius is better for only a slight loss in rate, which is why I said before that 2 notches are the optimal configuration for a two circle fight... in a one circle fight of course you would go full flaps.



The bottom line here is that if you are trying maximise your turn rate and radius in a two circle fight (that is turning nose to tail) then you want to be between 1 and 2 notches of flaps, while if you are in a one circle fight (that is turning nose to nose) you should go full flaps.

Hope that helps...

Badboy

[FLS]

Good stuff as always Badboy. 

[Badboy]

I haven't ran into any Jug pilots that left an impression. The few times I flew it, if the initial overshoot/tailslide doesn't work, you're pretty much screwed against almost all of the other planes.

Hi Titanic,

The P-47s were not designed with the typical Aces High combat environment in mind. That's not to say that they can't perform well in that scenario, they can, just not for long. I've known Jug pilots who can make a big impression on any other aircraft in the game, and will always leave you amazed if you actually survive the first 60 seconds of the fight.

The problem here is that when some people think of aircraft comparison, they think exclusively of the 1v1 angles fight and in that respect the P-47 and the P-51 for example are way down the list of top performers. But the P-47 and P-51 have attributes that make them excel in a combat environment that while rare in Aces High, was the norm in real life. These aircraft were intended to be flown in multi ship environments with flights fighting in pairs with a wingman providing mutual support. The P-47M and P-51D for example, are ideally suited to wing tactics because their flying qualities and performance lend themselves perfectly to that type of fight combined with a bias towards energy rather than angles fighting.

So while those aircraft may struggle in a pure 1v1 angles fight, they were never intended to be flown that way. On the other hand two good Jug pilots in Aces High, well versed in wing tactics can decimate a horde of better turning aircraft and land many kills each on a regular basis, provided they fly it as it was intended to be flown.

Hope that helps...

Badboy

[shiv]

The bottom line here is that if you are trying maximise your turn rate and radius in a two circle fight (that is turning nose to tail) then you want to be between 1 and 2 notches of flaps, while if you are in a one circle fight (that is turning nose to nose) you should go full flaps.

Hope that helps...

Badboy

Nicely laid out, thanks. That's something even I can remember.

Did you transpose the terminology though? I always thought nose to nose was two circles and nose to tail was one circle. I may be completely mistaken but it seems to make more sense that way.

[bozon]

Did you transpose the terminology though? I always thought nose to nose was two circles and nose to tail was one circle. I may be completely mistaken but it seems to make more sense that way.

The terminology usually refers to the pattern that the plane draw in the sky if they had smoke trail after them. If the two planes fly past each other HO and then both break to their respective "right", they will be drawing a "figure 8". They are both in a right hand turn, but they are not flying around the same circle, but rather around two circles whose center is displaced - a two circles fight.

If one plane turns right and the other to its left after the merge, they will be flying roughly around the same circle, but circling it in opposite directions, nose-to-nose. A one circle fight.

Of course the reality is more complicated than that. Planes don't fly in circles, but usually in ellipses or spirals till the speed drops near the minimal sustained turning speed. Different planes will also have different turning properties. By then, even if they started in opposite direction (nose to nose), their respective circle centers will be displaced and they are in a nose to nose situation but flying two overlapping circles. This is usually still considered a variation of the "one circle" fight.

Then there is the 3rd dimension...

[shiv]

Ah, thank you Bozon.

[Badboy]

I always thought nose to nose was two circles and nose to tail was one circle.

Hi Shiv, here are a couple of images...





The important thing to remember is that a two circle fight benefits the fighter with a turn rate advantage, and the one circle fight benefits the fighter with a turn radius advantage.

Hope that helps...

Badboy

[Babalonian]

Interestingly enough within AH, I observe the two-circle much more and often in instances of one of the agressors having an extremely high E state and the other plane is trying to gain/keep his E going into the fight against the high-E hostile (while still accepting the merge/challenge/opportunity head-on) - it's a very wide/large two-circle but they don't use flaps if maybe one or two notches at most.

The single circle though you see all the time in the knife fights, where speeds are often much slower and where full flaps can (and will be) utilised for an advantage.


Baboy just crit this thread with some of his knowledge.

[Badboy]

Hi,

Regarding the turning diagrams I've been posting, If anyone wants to know how to do this for themselves you can download the tool here:

Download Badboy's BootStrap Calculator

You just need to do the flight tests yourself and you can compare any aircraft you wish.

For comparisons, just paste the data to the top of the list and charts will show the turn circles.

Hope that helps.

Badboy

[texasfighter]

This is really good information! Will this make me an ace in the LWA? Nooooo.... not with my newbie skills. But it's nice to know you didn't pick the wrong plane for the job. Hate to go into a knife fight with a toothpick! Plus I have been an airplane fan since I was about 8 years old. I have about 100 books on WWII and most related to aircraft/airpower. I've read most of Martin Caidin's books about WWII aircraft. But still didn't know which P47 model could turn the best. I do remember that Robert Johnson said the paddle blade propellor made a huge difference in performance.
Thanks a bunch!