Gun control laws do they work ?

[Widewing]

Lots of folks making some pretty dramatic claims about accuracy. I'd say that the folks making the claims are doing so from the perspective of range shooting where the rounds only go one direction. As to accuracy claims, I am perfectly willing to stipulate that the average gun enthusiast who practices often easily can shoot better on the range than the average police officer suddenly thrust into a life and death situation can during the life and death crisis. Range shooting does not equally transfer to real combat, especially in a sudden incident situation where you are having to react to the threat.  But those of you who have range time are welcome to continue to think how good you really are. Talk to me after you have seen the elephant, you'll have credibility then.

Not all cops are good shots. Some are plain bad shots, just like the folks who get their ccw and then don't go to the range and maintain their skills. It's perishable.

Widewing, nice training syllabus there. Did you ever to a cost analysis to see how much it would take to run it for say a 500 man department including recurrent training? I'd be interested to hear if you have had the opportunity to do that and find out how much training budget a department might have on an annual basis in today's economy and if your ideas fit in it.

The Rand Corporation developed the recommended syllabus. I do not know what cost analysis NYPD did, but considering the recent reduction in their budget, I wouldn't be surprised if they had done nothing as of yet.

[VonMessa]

Yes, I did actually. Maybe 10-12 years ago.. We were developing shot-counters for a pilot program with the FBI. FBI agents reserved the Hogan's Alley operated by the Suffolk County PD. We spent the afternoon running the alley with 10mm S&W Model 1076, MP5 and MP5/10 subguns.. Was a hoot. At the end of the day, we still had ammo remaining. Two boxes of 9mm and about 70 rounds of 10mm. Because the paperwork involved to return ammo was daunting, the agents simply handed the ammunition to us. I still have the 10mm ammo, in my safe... Shot out the 9mm stuff within a week.

Like you, I've seen some insane behavior on public ranges. Seen some stupid stuff on Military ranges too. About 12 or so years ago, I led a team down to Fort Benning to test shot-counters on issue M16A2s (they worked well on new rifles, we wanted data on well used rifles). We were given a range position just down from where recruits were getting live fire training. Two recruits, on the last and nearest rifle pit position were grabassing. The one in the pit, with a magazine in his rifle, swept us as he turned around to jabber with the other. About 10 seconds later, he did it again, and then again! We were there with two civilian Army employees (who had requisitioned and provided the two M16s we were using). After the third sweep, I ran out of patience. I climbed out of the pit and walked over to the nearest instructor holding a cleaning rod (used to check for empty chambers or obstructed bores). I was really hot... I walked up and shoved my face into the instructor's and said, "the next time that soldier sweeps us with that weapon, I'm going to break it over his &%#@%$ head, and then I'm going take whatever is left of it and go find you."

He looked stunned...

Pointing at the recruit, I continued. "Three &%$@#&% times that man swept us with his weapon, playing grabass with his buddy there. Three times! It had better not happen again." I spun around and walked off as profuse apologies and "won't happen again, Sir" followed me...

Needless to say, things got really exciting for those two knuckleheads. Just as I headed back to our group, an officer walks over to my guys. He was the officer responsible for supporting our testing program. He overheard my raising hell, but didn't hear the details. We told him what had occurred and he said he would attend to the problem. I looked over at two recruits doing push-ups in a mud puddle and said, "I think I made my point, Major, but that's your call."

Follow up... The Army didn't buy the shot counters. The Navy did! 12,200 of them for installation in M4 carbines. Colt, who manufacture the M4 is negotiating with the services to install the counters as OEM. FN makes the M16A2, and they have been trying to develop their own shot counter design, thus far without success. Since they also make the SCAR, we haven't gotten on that yet, although we passed the testing and the SEALs want it. Politics, as usual.

Yes sir, you can find dumb almost anywhere....

Sounds like it was a hoot.  I have often thought about how fun it would be.

[Shuffler]

well,  based on the fact that your average gun owner doesnt do as much training with arms as your average police officer, then most likely that is the proof that your average police officer is better trained than your average gun owner.  

you are dreaming if you think your average gun owner is equally or better trained than the police.



semp

Fact?

[VonMessa]

Fact?

He is full of...  them.

[Nathan60]

Fact?

Yeah those police officers do alot of "stare at Canadian and put hand on pistol slowly" drills




(sorry Sempers couldnt resist)

[captain1ma]

some of the local police do training at my gunclub. luckily they have some smart people working for them. they shoot with sirens blaring and lights flashing, and go right into dusk. looks like great training for them. they seem to be pretty good shots, although i've never really watched them.

[hlbly]

Yes, I did actually. Maybe 10-12 years ago.. We were developing shot-counters for a pilot program with the FBI. FBI agents reserved the Hogan's Alley operated by the Suffolk County PD. We spent the afternoon running the alley with 10mm S&W Model 1076, MP5 and MP5/10 subguns.. Was a hoot. At the end of the day, we still had ammo remaining. Two boxes of 9mm and about 70 rounds of 10mm. Because the paperwork involved to return ammo was daunting, the agents simply handed the ammunition to us. I still have the 10mm ammo, in my safe... Shot out the 9mm stuff within a week.

Like you, I've seen some insane behavior on public ranges. Seen some stupid stuff on Military ranges too. About 12 or so years ago, I led a team down to Fort Benning to test shot-counters on issue M16A2s (they worked well on new rifles, we wanted data on well used rifles). We were given a range position just down from where recruits were getting live fire training. Two recruits, on the last and nearest rifle pit position were grabassing. The one in the pit, with a magazine in his rifle, swept us as he turned around to jabber with the other. About 10 seconds later, he did it again, and then again! We were there with two civilian Army employees (who had requisitioned and provided the two M16s we were using). After the third sweep, I ran out of patience. I climbed out of the pit and walked over to the nearest instructor holding a cleaning rod (used to check for empty chambers or obstructed bores). I was really hot... I walked up and shoved my face into the instructor's and said, "the next time that soldier sweeps us with that weapon, I'm going to break it over his &%#@%$ head, and then I'm going take whatever is left of it and go find you."

He looked stunned...

Pointing at the recruit, I continued. "Three &%$@#&% times that man swept us with his weapon, playing grabass with his buddy there. Three times! It had better not happen again." I spun around and walked off as profuse apologies and "won't happen again, Sir" followed me...

Needless to say, things got really exciting for those two knuckleheads. Just as I headed back to our group, an officer walks over to my guys. He was the officer responsible for supporting our testing program. He overheard my raising hell, but didn't hear the details. We told him what had occurred and he said he would attend to the problem. I looked over at two recruits doing push-ups in a mud puddle and said, "I think I made my point, Major, but that's your call."

Follow up... The Army didn't buy the shot counters. The Navy did! 12,200 of them for installation in M4 carbines. Colt, who manufacture the M4 is negotiating with the services to install the counters as OEM. FN makes the M16A2, and they have been trying to develop their own shot counter design, thus far without success. Since they also make the SCAR, we haven't gotten on that yet, although we passed the testing and the SEALs want it. Politics, as usual.

Yes sir, you can find dumb almost anywhere....

I think I might have a Ft. Benning story you will enjoy . While going through BRM training . We had finished all phases but practice then final qualification . While doing the practice qualification the guy in a firing position several down from  me put his Rifle on full auto and attempted to engage some birds flying by . The birds darted and wheeled and zoomed to the ground . I saw a round strike a little ways out from me . Dove to the bottom of my hole and did not want to come out . Yes yu can find stupid anywhere . The infanty requires the lowest score of any MOS on the asvab .

[hlbly]

The Rand Corporation developed the recommended syllabus. I do not know what cost analysis NYPD did, but considering the recent reduction in their budget, I wouldn't be surprised if they had done nothing as of yet.

Wonder what the shooting will cost them ?

[W7LPNRICK]

WOW! this threat ain't locked.... I carry a pistol. Large snake shot in the pipe, hurts like hell, but not lethal/wont go thru walls, the rest in the 16 rnd clip are BIG Daisy Cutter hallow points. If you're not armed and not charging, I aim main body/knees snake rnd, if advancing face shot with snake round, armed? double tap, twice...dog, face shot with snake round,    + practice practice practice.....

[zack1234]

If guns were outlawed in the US it would be better for everyone.

[W7LPNRICK]

If guns were outlawed in the US it would be better for everyone.

except the victims of armed criminals...who will always be armed. The cops can't keep illegal guns & drugs off the street now...? because there's a law criminals can't get guns? just because you say so?

 

[zack1234]

Why is Castro on that poster?

What did he do?

Is Guantanamo on Cuba?

I heard Cuba has the highest literacy rate in per capita of any nation. (They read books)

And they have a good health service as well.

I knew someone who went on holiday there, he was into cigars.

What is the American gun laws to do with that poster?

[Slate]

If guns were outlawed in the US it would be better for everyone.

  If Pies were outlawed it would be better for the Thames. 

[Shuffler]

Why is Castro on that poster?

What did he do?

Is Guantanamo on Cuba?

I heard Cuba has the highest literacy rate in per capita of any nation. (They read books)

And they have a good health service as well.

I knew someone who went on holiday there, he was into cigars.

What is the American gun laws to do with that poster?

Wow... tell that to all the cubans that flee there yearly.

[zack1234]

Are you still at war with Cuba.?

Lots of people flee India every year are they baddies as well.

I have looked up Guantanamo it is on Cuba and is a navel base, you must have made up if you have a base there?

Castro must have given you the go ahead to have a base on his island.