Warthog HOTAS

[33jtr]

I donīt get what all the hoopla is about.
I have no experience with CH stuff, but I bought a warthog and I was very disappointed to say the least. Sure, the hall effect and yada yada yada... But the thing has so much sticktion that I consider it unusable. I got it, unpacked it, plugged it in, tried off line and wondered what the hell was wrong with it. I have taken it apart about 20 times to try to get the thing to work properly. Thrustmaster (gracefully) even sent me a complete new "gimbal" set to try on for size. Made no difference. I have taken out the inner most ball in the joint (it is there to prevent Z-axis twisting of the grip) which adds massive amounts of friction to the stick. Still unacceptable. I have tried the slippriest lubricant known to man. No joy. Tried polishing the surfaces, and it got better but not good enough. It is a poor design. No way around it. Nice and flashy on the outside, all the internals are cheap and inadequate for a stick that set me back 450 bucks. Mine has been just a heap junk on my desk for the last couple of months. I do not even play anymore because of this. Havnīt bothered to dig out the X-65 (havnīt got much praise for that stick either).

My question would have to be, how hard can it be to build a decent gimbal mechanism? I could build one out ot cardboard that had a better feel to it than this thing (but donīt get any ideas, Thrustmaster), give me some particle board, a couple of ball bearings and... well you get my drift.

The software is cumbersome. One has to write up ones own code if one wants to configure any thing other than what the in game settings can do. That is unfortunate because the toggle switches donīt really make sense in game. Flick the switch the gear goes up, flick it the other way gear goes down. This turns the other way if you donīt start the game with all the switches in the right positions. Annoying but hey, itīs a "replica".

I do not recommend it for someone who wants realism, which is ironic because, again itīs a "replica". Sure does not feel anything like the real thing if you ask me.

I have a challenge for anyone who has one, and if you get different results than me maybe there really is something wrong with mine. Try this:

Move the stick about half way from center in x and y axis, so like 45 degrees to the side, any direction and hold it there. Now try to make an as small as possible input (move the stick). You will find that there is an enormous amount of "break free" sticktion or friction or what ever you want to call it when ever you want to make a small input from this intermediate position. That is the worst possible thing for good feel and measured precise flying.

The stick in my mind is not worth any where near what they are asking for it. Software is useless, so is the stick, the throttle has nothing but useless toggle switches and so on. I have yet to try anything from CH, but I find it hard to believe that their stuff could be worse than this. And donīt forget the 200 bucks you can spend on beer.

If you are looking for fulfillment in life look elsewhere.

[Gman]

I returned my x65 for many of the same troubles you're having with the warthog.  I think a CH setup is exactly what you are looking for.  Just find a store that has a combat or fighter stick and wiggle it around.  They are exceptional in terms of precision aiming and flying IMO.

[Reschke]

33tjr...you can't please everyone all the time and if you did try then you would fail miserably. Some people just don't like it and aren't satisfied with their choice no matter what they have bought; many times it is called buyers remorse.

[33jtr]

Buyers remorse... Ok, quite honestly I do not think that applies to me. Most of the quirks of this thing I can live with. The software, fine I can work it. Toggle switches, I can work around it. But I bought this thing because I was sick of all the poor feel sticks that I have had in the past. I paid about double what I have before and was hoping that I would get a stick with good feel. I did not. I got a badly designed, looking nice on the outside thing. I would never write this tirade if it was not for the fact that making a balanced and precise input from an intermediate position in the sticks travel was, well, impossible. What good does 64 bit resolution do you when the least amount of input you can make due to the friction is about 1/4 inch? I am more precise with my crappy logitech, hall effect or not.
If the stick would move without this extreme (and unrealistic- remember it is a replica!) level of friction I would probably be very happy with the thing. So if you want to call it buyers remorse when you are made to pay double or triple of a goods worth thatīs fine. I call it getting fleeced. Buying a Warthog is getting fleeced.
I am looking at the internals of the thing right now, and I cringe at the cheapness and low quality of the stuff. The castings are not only cheap plastic, they are of very poor tolerances as well. Let me clarify that. This thing has a ball "gimbal" type mechanism. The heart of the joint is a central "ball" that is attached to the base. Sliding on this "ball" is a "glove" that is attached to the handle. I decided to figure out how the contact surface between the two looked. So i put some abrasive paste in between them and wiggled them  around a bit. Having taken them apart and wiped off the paste it was clear that there were only a few very small points of contact. This is a tell tale of low quality and generous tolerances. For this thing to work it simply needs to be manufactured to a higher specification, so that there is a big surface contact area which prevents breakdown of the lubricant.
So, it is poorly designed and poorly manufactured. If it was not for those facts I would be happy with it. All the subjective stuff I can get used to. Unusable internals not.

So Reschke, do you own one? If you do, take my challenge in the last post and tell me how you did.

[Reschke]

I do own one. I have flown with it almost from the beginning of it being released. I was fortunate enough to win one at SimHQ instead of buying one (although I was going to get one regardless); anyway with that said I have no feeling of "sticktion" that you are talking about. I have taken mine apart and have looked at the internals as well but don't find what you are saying. I have heard this same argument before back when it came out from a guy in Russia or somewhere who said it was not precise enough for virtual formation flying. I disagree with that statement. I am able to make small adjustments easily when flying in formation with my squadron mates in traing, FSO or the main arenas or even with others that I fly in A-10C with occasionally without feeling that I have to pull hard to "break" the friction/"sticktion" that you mention.

I was not directing the buyers remorse comment at you; I was simply stating that sometimes people buy something expecting the be all/end all and they get to looking for ways to talk themselves out of it after buying it so they can take it back. I remember a similar thing with guys who started buying the CH sticks years ago talking about they were too big for their hands. Then someone came in and said use some pipe insulation and cut accordingly to your size hands and guess what...the size of the sticks complaints disappeared.

The simple solution here 33tjr is if you are unhappy with the thing either send it back or sell it to someone else that might be interested and then use the money to buy something else. I can't argue quality with you because I haven't seen yours and mine doesn't have the same issues that yours has; or either my eye for manufacturing is too old since I look for tolerances in QC of 1/1000th of an inch for a 24" diameter 30' piece of pipe when the company I represent is cutting pipes and welding ANSI bolt pattern flanges to meet specs in power plants.

[cattb]

From what I have read CH products are pretty good. My second saitek is spiking so I am looking at ebay so I can buy another and wear it out.

I wish CH would make a twisty stick. CH makes many other joystick models for various applications.

[33jtr]

Thanks for your input on that friction issue. That actually makes me a little more hopeful, and I may actually bother to reasemble the heap of parts one final time after having made another attempt at grinding the mating surfaces to actually fit one another, rather than just have the thing riding on the few small points of contact.


I donīt really want to argue about the quality of the thing either, just that someone wondered if it was all it was made out to be. Well, mine certainly was not. Just wanted to make known that they dont all perform as the ads say atleast. I do however have my doubts about wether or not this design is the best possible and worthy of a 450 bucks stick, or if it is made to look nice with cheap internals. If it were up to me (and I had to use this general design) I would at least have used a higher spec joint. But Ideally I would never have used the general design with the central joint and big coil spring, because it lends itself to this kind of problem.

[Pand]

My Warthog works like a champ!

[caldera]

Mine works perfectly.  There was a brief period of buyers remorse - until it got delivered.  Wow, it is sooo nice. 

Too bad it requires rudder pedals.  I'm on my third stint with them and am still badly uncoordinated.  No more X-52 nose bounce, though.

[SIK1]

I used a full CH set up for about ten years and had no complaints. In that time I had only one component failure, the right toe brake pot. The CH gear was always smooth and precise. I never had to re-calibrate it, as a matter of fact the few times I thought it had lost calibration it turned out that I had accidentally moved the trim pots. Yes you need rudder pedals but once you learn to use those rudder pedals you'll wonder how you ever did without them.
 
When the Warthog was first released I knew I had to try it. If for no other reason than it just looks so cool.     The cost is a bit prohibitive but it does look damn cool. The first thing I noticed about the Warthog was the weight. The second thing I noticed was how stiff the stick seemed. It felt like they used a garage door spring in the thing. It took me a while to get use to that. That being said the stick is very precise and reacts with just small inputs. I leave scaling off.

I did have an issue about a year after I got my Warthog where all the buttons on the stick died. It was repaired under warranty and I haven't had any issues since. I have read about the problem that 33jtr is talking about and I believe some people were looking at ways to resolve it. I personally haven't experienced that issue. You can find more info about the Warthog from people who own them here: http://www.warthogworld.com/hangar/forumdisplay.php?2-HOTAS-Warthog

[alskahawk]

 Thanks for the info G Man. I have used various products for years. Many years I bought TM's top of the line Hotas system(analog) and it ended up being a dust collector. CH has always worked very well for me, I have worn out or broken combat sticks, flight sticks and a couple of fighter sticks. I seem to get a good five or six years out of them with constant use. But I am always looking for a better setup.

 CH Fighter Stick
 CH Pro Throttle
 CH Pro Pedals