Opinions wanted on possible special event

[Krusty]

I believe it was with formations. As far as single planes go? I don't think it's any better. In the MA I don't have enough perks, so I have to take a single plane. I can still fly faster (even at moderate heights) than a low 109K4 can, for all intents and purposes. One guy dogged me for 3 sectors as I was RTB and got close enough to pop up and make some runs on me, but I was tracking him the entire time. There's almost NO angle you cannot shoot in those bombers. I got plenty of hits on him and he broke off to ditch somewhere. I assume I PWed him. I landed safely.

A Japanese plane would never have stood a chance. The problem is historically you flew on max cruise. It was the only way to carry bombs to target and make it back home. In this game folks run balls to the wall nonstop. How much gas do you get in a B17 in our 2x fuel burn MA? 90 minutes' worth? Combat runs over Germany took 6-8 hours or MORE sometimes. It's a total disconnect with historic realities as compared to what folks do for fun and by gaming the game to win. Same as bomb-and-bailers, or folks that dive B24s at 350mph, faster than I bet was structurally safe for them. We've had 8th AF FSOs where the bombers flew unescorted and racked up more kills than their escorts, AND made it home safely in record numbers.

The idea is an interesting one, but it will be abused so horribly that IMO it wouldn't be that much fun. Except maybe for the bombers...

[Krusty]

With a little bit more thought on the matter, I can think of a way it might be possible: Those new AI missions you can do. Set the AI to fly at cruise speeds, and assign humans to escort, intercept, and fly along with the AI.

Stipulate that human bombers (singles) must fly in formation with the AI bombers. They cannot fly ahead, or take their own course. That way you can control the speed effectively. That way if no bombers join, you still have them. Escorts can fly, attackers can fly, and even if you get bad luck with bomber pilot turnout they still get some fun.

That is the only way I can realistically see B-29s working. But IF it could be done, it might be a blast.

[mthrockmor]

I've wondered about the realism of our scenario buff formations in one regard: Speed.

I know the B-17s, B-24s and B-29s had a top of X, but did they use this during WW2 bomb runs? In-game the buff box hits the target and flys pretty much the entire mission at 100% power. Did they do this in WW2? Or was throttle pulled back to a lower pressure, maybe 80% to keep the integrity of the formation, etc?

If so, that would mean the B-29 v Japanese fighter set would be different if you put speed limits on the B-29s. If they did run into the area of action at full speed then my post is moot. Does anyone know?

Boo

[Karnak]

I've wondered about the realism of our scenario buff formations in one regard: Speed.

I know the B-17s, B-24s and B-29s had a top of X, but did they use this during WW2 bomb runs? In-game the buff box hits the target and flys pretty much the entire mission at 100% power. Did they do this in WW2? Or was throttle pulled back to a lower pressure, maybe 80% to keep the integrity of the formation, etc?

If so, that would mean the B-29 v Japanese fighter set would be different if you put speed limits on the B-29s. If they did run into the area of action at full speed then my post is moot. Does anyone know?

Boo

Bombers used cruise settings.  A B-17G would fly at 180-220mph depending on the specifics of load, range and altitude.  In AH B-17Gs pretty much do about 280-300mph.

Fighters would also largely use cruise settings for general flying.  The difference between bombers and fighters in engine management happens once combat is joined (for interceptors "combat joined" could be from take off until disengaging to return to base) where daylight bombers continue to use cruise speeds and maintain formation and fighters push the engine to MIL, sometimes WEP, pretty much for the duration of the combat.  Night bombers like Lancasters might push the engines to MIL while working to evade fighters or spotlights as they didn't have a formation to maintain, I am not sure.  Lancasters being used in formations during the day would use cruise only just like B-17s or B-24s.

[vafiii]

Yes, fighters against a horde of bombers would be great fun! Count me in!

[DarkHawk]

The only time I fly at 100% power in b17's is during climb out, after that 2300rpm manifold about 38. With no bombs that is about 260 to 270. Bombload about 245. I am most up at 27 to 32k.
This is in the MA.
So setting a restriction on rpm and manifold  would have no effect other than slowing down the buff somewhat.
To keep formation one would need for the lead buff manifold about 40 to allow other to keep in formation.
DHawk

[Krusty]

The only time I fly at 100% power in b17's is during climb out, after that 2300rpm manifold about 38. With no bombs that is about 260 to 270. Bombload about 245. I am most up at 27 to 32k.
This is in the MA.
So setting a restriction on rpm and manifold  would have no effect other than slowing down the buff somewhat.
To keep formation one would need for the lead buff manifold about 40 to allow other to keep in formation.
DHawk

You're still flying way faster than historically accurate, lol


P.S. You can't set a restriction on MAP/RPM for players. It's unenforcable. It's untrackable. Hence why I suggested using AI as the benchmark. They will stay at the speed you set.

[M1A1]

Flight speed in bombers is accurate for the game...Yesterday DGSII B24s 100% fuel and 8 1000lbers...manifold at 41" to get level flight at about 245 mph. I understnad though that this was not the average speed in real life so I think you would need to do a few tests Brooke to see what the bare minimum cruise speed in game is and then do like Krusty said and limit speed to that..
If I remember speeds on bombing runs for 8th AF were done at or just a bove 200 mph to increase accuracy..

[earl1937]

I'm reading Whirlwind, by Tillman, about the air-war against Japan in WWII.  I had previously thought of B-29 missions as hundreds of B-29's vs. very few Japanese fighters, and so not a fit for a special event.  However, among other things, the book covers the early B-29 missions, some of which involved unescorted B-29's at high alt vs. somewhat comparable numbers of late-war Japanese fighters, with outcomes not being lopsided for either side.

Do you think that it would be fun to have a special event of B-29's vs. late-war Japanese fighters where everyone is using air spawns to get up to higher alts?

Do you think it would be relatively balanced, with the altitude helping to offset that the B-29's have no escort?  Do you think it would work best with B-29's without formations if the side balance were to be 50:50 or still with formations enabled?

If you want to do something which is accurate and interesting, set up a special event with B-29's at 16 to 20 thousand feet, with no "air spawn", which was the normal mission profile during the early months of the Korean conflict, loaded with 4, 2 thousand bombs, which was used to destroy bridges, substitute ME-262 for MiG 15's and F-86D's and you might have a very interesting special event. Plan it with no perk points required for either the 29's or Me-262's and I would venture to guess you would have a lot of interest. Substitute the ME-410 for F-82's, which were used to attack roads, tanks and other object's on the ground.
If you are going to have a special event, stop putting all these "rules" in the game! There were no rules in Korea and it would be a lot more interesting if the "Mig's" had to locate the 29's, same with the 86D's escorting the 29's. The Yak 9's were used as "scouts" and many were shot down by 51's and 82's during early months of war. Don't restrict the altitude of the bombers, or what route's they have to follow, leave that up the mission commander to decide.
Railroads and rail yards were another target which drew a lot of attention in the early months of the "war"
If you are really interested in setting up a special event, drawn up as I have outlined, I would be glad to help. Try to use Greebo's new crater map as a setting as it closely matches a lot of the terrain in Korea.

[mbailey]

I'm reading Whirlwind, by Tillman, about the air-war against Japan in WWII.  

How are you liking the book? Ive read it twice and loved it 

Always thought a event based on this would be awesome 

[RTHolmes]

With a little bit more thought on the matter, I can think of a way it might be possible: Those new AI missions you can do. Set the AI to fly at cruise speeds, and assign humans to escort, intercept, and fly along with the AI.

Stipulate that human bombers (singles) must fly in formation with the AI bombers. They cannot fly ahead, or take their own course. That way you can control the speed effectively. That way if no bombers join, you still have them. Escorts can fly, attackers can fly, and even if you get bad luck with bomber pilot turnout they still get some fun.

That is the only way I can realistically see B-29s working. But IF it could be done, it might be a blast.

this is a great idea, and the only way I can think of to force realistic speeds

forcing realistic alts/speeds in eg. BoB events would be very easy (Ju88 is ~15mins with 25% and 2x burn), but impossible with the B-29 simply because of its massive range.

[Brooke]

How are you liking the book? Ive read it twice and loved it 

Always thought a event based on this would be awesome 

I like it.  Some other recent favorites:  The Few, Masters of the Air, Intrepid, and Flak.

There is another aspect that the book describes that would make a very good event -- the early carrier-based attacks on Japan, when there were fights with even numbers of US vs. Japanese aircraft.