A proper kneeboard

[Stellaris]

Sigh...  Am I really that bad at communicating?  Or is karma finally getting me back for putting crazy glue on Mrs. Perkin's chair back in Grade 7?  

1.  There is no need for a virtual pilot with virtual knees.  All we're asking for is for an option to make the clipboard plane-relative rather than view-relative.

2.  I know the clipboard remembers where it was put.  If you've ever used TrackIR, you'll understand why just looking down and pushing the button is not a solution.  Your head (and your eyes) move continuously, and your brain does some very sophisticated processing to make your perception of a scene seem stable even though in fact it is not.  This is what makes it possible to use a headtracker, like TrackIR - your proprioceptive feedback system combines with your visual stabilization system and the head-movement-co-ordinated 3D motion displayed on your screen to give you the convincing illusion that you're looking back over your shoulder (or wherever) when you turn your head - even though really you're just looking kind of sideways and your eyes are still locked on the same place they were before.  It's a very clever idea and it works great.

That is, it works great unless there is some portion of the display which does not move with the 3D world around you.  Like for example, the clipboard, which for various reasons is the worst offender.  If you look down and bring up the clipboard, it will still jitter around with your head movements.  This seriously downgrades the immersivity of the experience.  

The immersion is the point.  Not the virtual pilot.  Not the pilot's knees.  Not where the clipboard shows up.  Not the button mapping.  Not the size of the clipboard.  Immersion.  Immersion.  Immersion.

Thanks for listening.

@USRanger - at this point, I'll take that kneeboard... 

[MK-84]

You are asking to make the clipboard static in relation to the airframe?

[Stellaris]

Yes!  Specifically, I'm asking for there to be an option to make the clipboard static with relation to the airframe.  Included in this is the ability to set its X,Y,Z and R,P,Y with respect to the airframe.

Whew!

[guncrasher]

I got a question stellaris.  you mention that bringing the map up with a button and putting it down takes a second and is disruptive.  how is looking down less disruptive?

midway

[Stellaris]

We're visual creatures.  Looking at a particular place to find a particular piece of information is a very natural thing to do. 

Imagine that rather than a speedometer on your dashboard, your car had a snazzy headmount display.  Now when you want to know your speed, you just push a button, and no matter where you're looking, after a second, it pops into your field of view.  And stays there.  Until you push the button again, when after a second it disappears.  Is this better than just glancing at your speed?

Or to put it another way - if you had the option to make your whole instrument panel be locked to your view like the clipboard, and open and close with a button - would you want it?

[guncrasher]

well first this is not a car.  second you didnt answer my question.  3rd in a car analogy you have the heads up display already but you want to be able to look down instead.


midway

[Stellaris]

Pushing a button is more disruptive than looking down, because looking is the default method by which we seek information. 

Here's a demonstration - answer this simple question.

What is the exact time right now?

And your eyes just moved to the nearest clock - probably to the lower right of your screen, possibly to your watch or a wall clock.  No matter where your eyes go, they go there because your brain maintains a sophisticated map linking a desired piece of knowledge (the time) to the place you can find it.  This is a single-step processing "primitive," and it works quickly and instinctively. 

Now try this one.

What's the top application in your task manager?

And I'll bet you just skipped past that question and kept reading, because to get the information you have to push Ctrl-Alt-Del to bring up the task manager, visually locate it and then reclose the task manager.  Even though it's just a button push and takes only a couple of seconds, doing this task would take you out of the flow of reading in a way that checking the time does not.

In fact, your visual system can lock onto a known-location target (saccade is the technical term) in as little as 10 milliseconds when trained to do so, and the relevant information is in your brain 10 milliseconds after that.  Compared to this a two second button-popup-button-close sequence is ten times slower.  It's actually much worse than that for a bunch of other brain-processing reasons which I'll spare you unless you really want to know.  So pushing a button for information is much more disruptive to whatever you're doing than just glancing to the place it always exists.

However, on a deeper level the issue is NOT pushing the button, else I would push the button once and leave the clipboard up.  The issue is that the clipboard is view-locked, and the real world does not have view-locked elements.  My wife is an airforce science officer who's currently working on helmet mount systems for military aircraft.  Being geeky, I read everything over her shoulder, so I can tell you that view-locked information is used very sparingly in HMD, because it can cause spatial disorientation.  It's also always transparent, and focused on infinity (that's why the text buffer is less an issue than the clipboard).  Aces High has no IMC, so SD is not an issue, but having the clipboard jitter around in relation to the plane and the world ruins immersion for the same reason view-locked HMD elements cause SD.  The brain gets two conflicting references for what the "real" orientation is, and the mental gyros tumble.  In a real plane, you crash.  In a simulator, you just don't feel you're flying a real plane.

Which is what we're here for, after all!

Hope this makes it clearer.

[guncrasher]

It's cool that your wife works in that job.  jealous here as that was something I always wanted to do.

in a while you will begin to understand what hitech always says.  "what people ask for is not really what they want".


midway

[Stellaris]

You're jealous?  I have to live with her!  Right now she's doing her ejection seat training so she can get her necessary F-18 time.

On the plus side, she thought an Avro Arrow desk model was the most romantic thing I could have got her for her birthday, after her dress sword.  She loves airshows...

OK, now I'm bragging.

[muzik]

Not sure why everyone is throwing up obstacles here -

Paul

You haven't spent enough time on the BBS. I'm afraid you are  in this padded room.

It's a good idea. I never used TIR, but I can see your point.

Here's one for you to throw at them, the clip board doesn't display anything until you look down at it and either click on the board or it's programmed to display at that time. There's always a way.

[guncrasher]

You haven't spent enough time on the BBS. I'm afraid you are   in this padded room.

It's a good idea. I never used TIR, but I can see your point.

Here's one for you to throw at them, the clip board doesn't display anything until you look down at it and either click on the board or it's programmed to display at that time. There's always a way.

bingo you got it.  which means it will take about a second or 2 from the time you look down for it to display anything.  which brings up the question again  what will be the difference between looking down and pressing a button to bring up the clipboard then closing it down again.

the other option would be to have it keep track of objects in real time and take a frame rate hit but that would be for everybody.  and some guys are playing with low end computers already.  another frame hit would push them out.  you can call it an option to have it enabled but it would only be for a few people to use it.  

I play with 3 screens.  i really have to turn my head to look at the map as it is in a corner and minimized as small as I can see the icons but it will still be bigger than what stellaris is asking for and It would be so small as for it to be useless or it will cover the instrument panel and this you cant avoid.

the clipboard wont be hidden once you look up.  learn how trackir and aces high intereact and you will see what I mean.

which goes back to what hitech always says.  what people ask for is not what they want.


midway

[bc21]

I've read this hole thing. And I think it would be a good idea to lock the clipboard in a position in the cockpit. However Hitech said you would take a big frame rate hit if you left it open. And as long as you have the choice to choose to use this feature or not I dont see the harm in it.

[muzik]

bingo you got it.  which means it will take about a second or 2 from the time you look down for it to display anything.  which brings up the question again  what will be the difference between looking down and pressing a button to bring up the clipboard then closing it down again.

Your missing the op's  main point buddy. You keep trying to find some kind of advantage. He's not looking for an advantage over anyone or anything. It's one thing and one thing only he is trying to get out of this, immersion. Something the wizard of oz doesn't understand.

Not everyone wants the same experience. If it doesn't detract from others experience, why shoot the idea down at all?

the other option would be to have it keep track of objects in real time and take a frame rate hit but that would be for everybody.  and some guys are playing with low end computers already.  another frame hit would push them out.  you can call it an option to have it enabled but it would only be for a few people to use it.  

I'm not getting into this old argument. It makes no sense. By your logic, we shouldn't have hi-res skins because some peoples PCs wont handle it. I would think if their system cant handle basic things in the game, they can't handle or afford to use TiR anyhow. And last but not least, the original suggestion was to make it optional.

I play with 3 screens.  i really have to turn my head to look at the map as it is in a corner and minimized as small as I can see the icons but it will still be bigger than what stellaris is asking for and It would be so small as for it to be useless or it will cover the instrument panel and this you cant avoid.

the clipboard wont be hidden once you look up.  learn how trackir and aces high intereact and you will see what I mean.

I don't agree and I think the clipboard would likely fill the screen when he looks down. All depends on his settings. And the clipboard shouldn't cover any of the panel as long as TiR renders a fully 3d world. You're looking straight down.

which goes back to what hitech always says.  what people ask for is not what they want.

OH brother. Please stop now, or I'll be banned before he locks the thread.

[guncrasher]

I don't agree and I think the clipboard would likely fill the screen when he looks down. All depends on his settings. And the clipboard shouldn't cover any of the panel as long as TiR renders a fully 3d world. You're looking straight down.

then if you have trackir minimize the clipboard so it fits up until when it reaches the panel then see how usefull it will be.  I did that.  it is pretty small to the point of being useless.


midway

[Stellaris]

@muzik -  Wow, yes, thank you!  Immersion!

@midway - You're still saying it would be too small.  As I said before, you could still zoom it to whatever size you want.  As I said before, on my screen, even fully zoomed out, the clipboard is perfectly usable.  As I said before I am now flying with it fully zoomed out all the time. 

You're also still saying only a few people would use it - but you're using 3 screens!  When the OS and GL code to support multi-screen went in, NOBODY used 3 screens.  Technology advances.  It's a good idea to be prepared for it.  As I said before, in any mature system, improvements come at the margins.  The question is - is particular margin going to be mainstream in a year or two.  In this case, yes it is.  More people will have TIR, more people will have high quality, high resolution screens, and more people will have more powerful graphics processors.

And no, I don't think this would give me any particular advantage.  It'll give me immersion.

Thanks for listening!