Kills of P51s

[Zoney]

Who here has engaged when they had no ammo and didn't have to engage?

Raises hand.  If you mean I was not under a threat, however a squaddie was.

[titanic3]

Who here has engaged when they had no ammo and didn't have to engage?

A couple of times, to save a friend. 

[Kingpin]

Who here has engaged when they had no ammo and didn't have to engage?

I did that recently during a vTard attack.  Was going to land, completely out of ammo, but engaged one to clear somebody else.

I saddled him, and had to get inside of 200 before he realized I was there.  Stayed slightly out of phase to make him think I was maneuvering for a shot.  Eventually he stalled and augered from his stick jerking.  It was a moment I will continue to enjoy recalling.

We were both in Ponies, in fact.

[Karnak]

Yup.  That sort of thing.  Fun to cause a red to break in a panic when you're completely toothless.  Even better if you cause the guy to auger.

[muzik]

I disagree (who woulda guessed haha)

seriously though.....I see what you are saying...but you are forgetting intent......the guy who is roping cons is intent on killing them..... he is engaging them, his nose being pointed up does not mean he disengaged them...when I merge with someone my nose is not pointed right AT them....I am still engaging them.....a BnZ player that hits the deck to get away from a death his "intent" is not to engage but to save his cartoon life.....

You're right, the guy roping is intent on killing them. If he came in high and all he did was stay up there and BnZ, then as you said, he stayed engaged. He didn't run, he was already up there. Then the worst you could say was he was timid and wouldn't fully commit. Then you have to ask what was he not committing to? A turn fight with his pony v a brewster or his pony v a FW A8? You can call him a coward in the second case, not the first.

If it was a pony v a ki84 and knowing the ki will out turn the pony a good deal of the time, and the pony dives in, goes a few turns with the Ki but breaks off and goes for some separation, you can't call him a coward. The Ki is a better turning plane, I think it out climbs him and is close in speed. He took a risk, it would be stupidity for him to continue to turn with a Ki.

I disagree with the going for the deck part. I have done this many times, only because it was the best opportunity to get some speed and maybe separation. Sometimes it didn't provide any separation, we kept going at it in the dive, but I had no intention of breaking off. Sometimes it was a stalemated fight and it needed to be reset.

Sometimes when a guy would come around on my six, I dove for the deck with no intention of letting HIM get away. Then I forced him to overshoot when he thought I was going to run.

Bottom line is, if you are turning with another plane and you come out of those turns whether it's by using superior climb, going level or diving away, then you have disengaged. I admit to disengaging profusely. Even if you somehow psyched him out and he went one way and you went another, you were disengaged. If you did it on purpose it was an intentional disengagement, and the fact that you intend on reengaging doesn't change that you were disengaged.

To quote the best fighter pilot of all time, they called him Viper. He taught Maverick, "better to retire and save your aircraft than push a bad position." I am not timid. My mood and circumstances determine how much risk I will take. There have to be other circumstances to make me run like you are describing and I agree with you in general. I just think there is a lot more grey area in there that you don't acknowledge.

<S> Muzik, long time, no see.


  I don't feel comfortable running away if I have chosen to engage in a close-in manoeuvring fight with a Zero and he gets my six. Then I either think he's earned it or I have fluffed it and deserve to 'die'. I fight to the bitter end. I suppose that makes me pretty weird.


I agree with Ink that the intention is significant. Today I had a fight with a Brewster, a P-51D and a P-38 simultaneously. I moved away at the start of the engagement, not because I was trying to run but to make a small lateral separation between the two fast and the more turny bird. I think this is justifiably my prerogative since I was attacked by three. Running or climbing away never entered my mind, I wanted to fight. At several moments two out of the three were firing at me at the same time, however I managed to prevail. The P-51D survived and decided to disengage and move away. I flew home missing a small number of unimportant parts. Salutes were exchanged and that was that.

I make this statement without 'bigging myself up', bragging or putting other players down, this is just an insight into shida's perverse world of 'have fun trying something hard because no one actually dies'.

Give it a try!

<S> Shida, good to see you around.

But with all due respect, I call baloney. So maybe I should have been more specific. Nobody is balls out 100% of the time. I believe you do fly that way. I have done the same many times. But I am not like that 100% of the time and I don't believe anyone else is either.

I have seen you go up against Brews and zekes in the DA many times and I know there were plenty of people in there, that because of their character, you would not allow to take you like that simply as a matter of pride. We chose our fights and styles according to our moods. Sometimes according to who we were fighting.

As for intent, you are both right. Intent is significant, but you can't tell intent except in some of the most obvious cases. Neither of you would know my intent when I am diving for the deck, because my intent every time I do that (barring other circumstances) is to force an overshoot if you chase me or turn back into you if you don't.

<S> to both of you, I know you got balls, never thought otherwise.

[Pand]

A couple of times, to save a friend. 

All the time

[james]

Joined the game and flew a spitty for about 6 months to a year mostly while trying different planes. A friend said I was able to bring the moxie when I used the P51D and gave it a real try for about a year and still sucked at the game, not that I don't now. Really got into the history of WWII aviation over the years and talked to the wifes grandfather who used to fly the Catalina and had a lot to say about the game as well as the planes (real life) and started reading more. Read Shaw mostly and some other authors. Now after so many years I can't put the p51D down. I feel out of control in other planes. I try and fight (still completly suck at the game) and only land 2 or 3 at a time. I have fun doing it and usually have to hit the head after the second kill after so much rum. I just wish we had the Chuck Yeager skin of all in the game with Glamorous Glenn II. Love the plane and love seeing another p51D's co-alt co-e. Now if I could just get past that completly sucking at the game stage i'd be good to go.    

 

[titanic3]

All the time

I would do it more if I flew solo less often. 

[Shifty]

Who here has engaged when they had no ammo and didn't have to engage?

I do it all the time if a squadmate or a friendly is in trouble. Its amazing how many bad guys you can scatter with an aggressive dry run.

[mtnman]

I got a better contest, whoever posts the best film of a P51 dogfight. win or lose, doesn't matter.

This was a nice fight.  I could always count on Steve, Agent, Sunka, and a few others to give me a run for my money in a pony. 

Of course, I was flying the "F4U-1A o' doom" so the conclusion was inevitable...

He engaged, kept his advantage and the pressure on without heading for the horizon, and pounced in for the kill when he had me where he thought he wanted me...  I'd even wager he "called off" the LA7 and maybe even the spit so that he could keep it a clean 1 v 1 fight... 

All the makings of a good fight.

I also love how he called me "lucky", because it tells me his mind was in the right place.  I think good pilots are always surprised/shocked when they lose (even if they're in a P51)...

I almost hate to show it, as it may highlight the futility of fighting in a P51?

I bet the Spit was drooling about the easy, on the deck F4U kill he was presented with   

I suppose I shouldn't have equalized our E-states like I did, but when I hit the point where I could have bailed I did turn back for him...

Spits shouldn't mess with F4U's either 

http://www.4shared.com/file/vM2VjS0t/agent360_p51_0001.html

[tunnelrat]

All the time

Maybe if you didn't steal all the kills 2 minutes into a sweep you would HAVE some ammo let to clear my ass!

[Ripley]

This was a nice fight.  I could always count on Steve, Agent, Sunka, and a few others to give me a run for my money in a pony. 

Of course, I was flying the "F4U-1A o' doom" so the conclusion was inevitable...

He engaged, kept his advantage and the pressure on without heading for the horizon, and pounced in for the kill when he had me where he thought he wanted me...  I'd even wager he "called off" the LA7 and maybe even the spit so that he could keep it a clean 1 v 1 fight... 

All the makings of a good fight.

I also love how he called me "lucky", because it tells me his mind was in the right place.  I think good pilots are always surprised/shocked when they lose (even if they're in a P51)...

I almost hate to show it, as it may highlight the futility of fighting in a P51?

I bet the Spit was drooling about the easy, on the deck F4U kill he was presented with   

I suppose I shouldn't have equalized our E-states like I did, but when I hit the point where I could have bailed I did turn back for him...

Spits shouldn't mess with F4U's either 

http://www.4shared.com/file/vM2VjS0t/agent360_p51_0001.html

There's no such thing as futility to fighting in a P51. it probably wasnt your intent (at least I'll give you the benefit of a doubt) but you make it sound like the only thing a pony is good for is hit and run.

Didn't watch your video mainly because I'm not at a computer with a film viewer, but I assume that the P51 you fought tried to turn fight your F4U, which I guess is okay until you hit 250mph, at which point you wouldn't catch me dead turning with your corsair. A fight like that is all about knowing the plane your enemy is flying, and he either didnt, or didn't care.

Wish I was home right now, just last night I got into a great dogfight with a spit16 that came at me with a little more E than I had. Surprised the crap outa him when he came around from his initial overshoot to see me barrel-rolling over the top of him getting ready to put the guns on his six. In the end he got his plane down engine-out with a punctured fuel tank and a swiss-cheese-like airframe, but it was a good fight none-the-less.

I may just post the video when I get home.

The real rub, and tell-tale sign of b/s, is the fact that I can pick the hell out of someone in a Ki-84 and people will salute or say GJ... I can pull an amazing tracking shot at high speed in a Bravo and best case nothing, worst case some sob story pm or gemstone on 200.

Lauded 109 pilot last night gets himself wacked in a turning engagement with a pony, no salute no nothing.

A few days ago I headed back to a friendly base in my Delta Pony when I got jumped by an at least semi-well-known 109 pilot with a higher E advantage. He flew over me and did a Split S trying to get back on my tail, which I immediately reversed and got on his 6. after about 10 seconds of high-speed turning he blacked out and went level, giving me an easy kill. Did I get a salute for engaging and beating his 109 in my Pony? No, I got an excuse in 200 that something someone else said in the 200 channel made him laugh and he lost his concentration.

[nooby52]

Eventually he stalled and augered from his stick jerking.  It was a moment I will continue to enjoy recalling.

We were both in Ponies, in fact.

Pony-on-Pony-killing...whatta waste.

[mtnman]

There's no such thing as futility to fighting in a P51. it probably wasnt your intent (at least I'll give you the benefit of a doubt) but you make it sound like the only thing a pony is good for is hit and run.

Didn't watch your video mainly because I'm not at a computer with a film viewer, but I assume that the P51 you fought tried to turn fight your F4U, which I guess is okay until you hit 250mph, at which point you wouldn't catch me dead turning with your corsair. A fight like that is all about knowing the plane your enemy is flying, and he either didnt, or didn't care.

Sure, I was a bit tongue-in-cheek... 

However, I'd consider the P51 pilot in question to be very accomplished in probably any ol' plane he cares to fly, and even in a P51 I'm sure he was/is a serious "threat" to almost any pilot in the MA's.  He's the type of pilot who's going to do better than the vast majority whether he flies the P51 to it's well-known advantages, or decides to transition into the more "dangerous" realm of really "wringing it out".

In this film, he maintained an advantage and pressured me until he felt he could transition his E into a position for a kill-shot.  I wouldn't say that "not knowing" or "not caring" would be accurate assessments.  "Calculated, aggressive gamble" might be more accurate.

When it comes to the "futility" of fighting in the P51...

It's not a film of a "fantastic fight" by any stretch, but then again I can only think of a handful of times where I was equally or more pressured than that by a P51.

In the 10 or so years I was flying regularly, I'd easily put this pilot (specifically flying the P51) into the "top 50" most threatening pilots against my corsair.  "Top 50" is probably inaccurate as well...  Top 20 maybe?  I can't think of too many other pilots flying P51's in a 1v1 that I would consider to be more likely to shoot me down, and I bumped into a lot of them over the years, flying a myriad of styles/strategies.

Can you "wring out" the P51 and do well?  Sure, some guys really can.  They're in the VAST minority of pilots though (<1% of the pilots in the MA?).  It can be done (and I've seen it), but it's far from easy.  For most pilots "wringing it out" in a P51 isn't a great strategy.  It's going to be far easier for them to be successful flying in a much more "safe" manner.

When it comes to arguing against the futility of fighting in a P51, it's probably a poor argument for me to show a very good pilot flying a plane very well, starting from a position of advantage, and losing...  It kind of hints that it would be extremely difficult for an "average Joe" to succeed in similar circumstances.

It would be a far better example if you posted your film of being successful in a P51 against an advantaged, skillful pilot in a tough-to-beat plane like the Spit16.  Of course, the victory over the SPit16 would need to include a skillful pilot who's flying it well to be of real value...

I think it's also telling how comparatively few "P51 pilots" get to be known as "really good".  And how few "really good" films there are of pilot's winning in (or being beaten by) P51's.  It's a rare P51 pilot indeed (from what I've seen) that can begin in a disadvantaged position in a fight, reverse that position, and come out the victor against a wide range of pilots, in a wide range of planes, and in a wide range of circumstances.

By far, the advantage the P51 has is its ability to start well out of icon range (or at least out or harm's way), quickly close the distance to its target once inside icon range, and then quickly get back out of icon range (or at least out of danger).  It's something the P51 can do better than most planes in AH, and doubtlessly the tactic that earns it the most kills overall.  It's an effective tactic, and arguably one of the strongest cards in the P51's "deck", but not a tactic that will ever earn a pilot in AH any acclaim...

It's nothing against dedicated P51 pilot's.  It's just a difficult plane to earn respect in...

[Ripley]

Sure, I was a bit tongue-in-cheek... 

However, I'd consider the P51 pilot in question to be very accomplished in probably any ol' plane he cares to fly, and even in a P51 I'm sure he was/is a serious "threat" to almost any pilot in the MA's.  He's the type of pilot who's going to do better than the vast majority whether he flies the P51 to it's well-known advantages, or decides to transition into the more "dangerous" realm of really "wringing it out".

In this film, he maintained an advantage and pressured me until he felt he could transition his E into a position for a kill-shot.  I wouldn't say that "not knowing" or "not caring" would be accurate assessments.  "Calculated, aggressive gamble" might be more accurate.

When it comes to the "futility" of fighting in the P51...

It's not a film of a "fantastic fight" by any stretch, but then again I can only think of a handful of times where I was equally or more pressured than that by a P51.

In the 10 or so years I was flying regularly, I'd easily put this pilot (specifically flying the P51) into the "top 50" most threatening pilots against my corsair.  "Top 50" is probably inaccurate as well...  Top 20 maybe?  I can't think of too many other pilots flying P51's in a 1v1 that I would consider to be more likely to shoot me down, and I bumped into a lot of them over the years, flying a myriad of styles/strategies.

Can you "wring out" the P51 and do well?  Sure, some guys really can.  They're in the VAST minority of pilots though (<1% of the pilots in the MA?).  It can be done (and I've seen it), but it's far from easy.  For most pilots "wringing it out" in a P51 isn't a great strategy.  It's going to be far easier for them to be successful flying in a much more "safe" manner.

When it comes to arguing against the futility of fighting in a P51, it's probably a poor argument for me to show a very good pilot flying a plane very well, starting from a position of advantage, and losing...  It kind of hints that it would be extremely difficult for an "average Joe" to succeed in similar circumstances.

It would be a far better example if you posted your film of being successful in a P51 against an advantaged, skillful pilot in a tough-to-beat plane like the Spit16.  Of course, the victory over the SPit16 would need to include a skillful pilot who's flying it well to be of real value...

I think it's also telling how comparatively few "P51 pilots" get to be known as "really good".  And how few "really good" films there are of pilot's winning in (or being beaten by) P51's.  It's a rare P51 pilot indeed (from what I've seen) that can begin in a disadvantaged position in a fight, reverse that position, and come out the victor against a wide range of pilots, in a wide range of planes, and in a wide range of circumstances.

By far, the advantage the P51 has is its ability to start well out of icon range (or at least out or harm's way), quickly close the distance to its target once inside icon range, and then quickly get back out of icon range (or at least out of danger).  It's something the P51 can do better than most planes in AH, and doubtlessly the tactic that earns it the most kills overall.  It's an effective tactic, and arguably one of the strongest cards in the P51's "deck", but not a tactic that will ever earn a pilot in AH any acclaim...

It's nothing against dedicated P51 pilot's.  It's just a difficult plane to earn respect in...

I completely agree with you, the 51 is not an easy plane to gain respect in at all.

I will admit that in my situation of reversing on that spit, when I looked back at the video it was a pilot I've never seen before. Does that mean he wasn't a good pilot? No, but the chances were far fewer, and his flying wasn't perfect. My only point about that specific engagement was that I wasn't afraid to at least attempt to go toe to toe with a plane that is supposed to outclass me in a turn fight instead of running from him or giving him an easy kill, and in this situation it worked in my advantage. Granted, the initial reversal was basically handed to me, all it took was a basic understanding of ACM. Had he pushed his spit to the edge of its performance ability, he may have eventually regained an advantage, at which point I would have disengaged and extended to regain some E. please don't misunderstand that as tucking my tail and running home.

In your situation with your p51 opponent, thank u for explaining that more in depth.  Taking a gamble with your E like that against an f4u, at least in my experiences, means you are either gonna get that one-chance only perfect shot and kill him, or you are going to miss and your offensive options from there on out are going to be severely lacking, at least against a good f4u pilot. At that point, trying to extend away from the f4u would be futile as it would easily keep up with the pony, and at those low speeds the f4u wins the turn fight too. I guess I would have to really feel out how good the pilot was with the stick in that plane before I took that gamble. Call it timid if you want, I would call it smart flying. I wouldn't have a problem at all staying quick and fighting the f4u BNZ style. You don't have to get low and slow in a 51 in order to be good in it, you just get more recognition for doing it and succeeding. Not to say that people that do it and succeed more often than not don't deserve that  recognition, because they definitely do.