Author Topic: Kills of P51s  (Read 4424 times)

Offline nrshida

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Re: Kills of P51s
« Reply #75 on: December 03, 2012, 09:55:40 AM »
Where is the honor is expecting a plane that lost it advantage to fight to your planes advantage?

The way of the Samurai is found in death.

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Offline tunnelrat

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Re: Kills of P51s
« Reply #76 on: December 03, 2012, 10:04:30 AM »
tunnelrat,

Odd, I've never seen a complaint about the P-51B.  They are very rare.  Last one I recall seeing was about two or three years ago when it dove on my Spitfire Mk XIV.  I was pretty surprised how fast the Spitfire Mk XIV was able to reverse the energy situation and kill the P-51B.

As to your point, well, obviously heavy, poor turning aircraft don't do as well in a slow furball, but there are methods to fight in which things like the Fw190, P-47, P-51, Mosquito and Typhoon can be used aggressively without long stretches of running.  I don't think anybody is suggesting the Me410s should get into slow, horizontal turn fights with A6M5s.

The complaints about the 51B ARE generally directed at one person hahahahaha....

But, honestly, aside from the gun package and obviously the ordnance options, the Bravo is superior to the Delta in almost all ways.

I am right on-board with those that decry the behavior of some pilots, who tend to fly 51Ds, 190D9s, or (more rarely) 109K4s... they dive in, either miss/collide/get lucky, and then haul bellybutton a sector away... OR if you catch them and dive on THEM they will vector on the nearest target and try to get one more kill before you get them.

The fact of the matter is, when someone is fighting intelligently in a 51 (regardless of mark) they will be BnZing... which means that TnB planes have to use a little more patience and strategy to kill one.

It is also conducive to attacking an already engaged opponent, since everyone in the MA dogpiles any enemy con they see, and are therefore pretty much always engaged.  Of course, the term "picking" apparently means "anything that isn't a HO" if there are more than 2 planes in the fight.

And while you and I get that telling a Mossie to turn fight a Zero or he isn't "fighting" is absurd, you'd be surprised how many people appear to subscribe to the "Fly a turner, or die in your BnZ plane with cartoon honor!"


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Offline ink

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Re: Kills of P51s
« Reply #77 on: December 03, 2012, 10:08:06 AM »
Gotta admit that turn fighting a Ki-84 in a Mustang would be foolish unless you can keep the fight fast.  Not much point in getting low and slow with an 84 though.   I would agree that there aren't many who 'fight' in it in the classic dogfight that an MA furballer prefers.   :cry


absolutely......  there are a few Pony sticks that are very good in it and fight Their arses off.....They don't just nose down trying to get away as soon as they might lose a bit of advantage..... :aok

I do this against Ki84's, with the most recent being Ink.  I can usually tell it's him within the first couple of turns, especially how he gets the Ki84 slow and cuts the corners inside the turning and reversing.  So, I end up losing the fights to him. :)


you dont make it easy......thats for watermelon sure. :aok




Offline Karnak

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Re: Kills of P51s
« Reply #78 on: December 03, 2012, 10:18:56 AM »
tunnelrat,

Yup.  BnZ has to be aggressive or you'll never bleed the E out of your opponent.  That is something the guys who run for a sector after each pass don't get.  They aren't really BnZing as there is no element of forcing E starvation on their opponents.  They are simply relying on picking people who didn't see them.


The way of the Samurai is found in death.
So far as I know that means that you fight with your death an accepted and assumed outcome in order to remove the fear of death.  Once the warrior is no longer worried about dying he doesn't waste energy and thought on it and can focus more effectively on the actual fighting.  There is no requirement that he has to fight stupidly.
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      Drift through my woman's hand,
             As she remembers me-

Offline Nathan60

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Re: Kills of P51s
« Reply #79 on: December 03, 2012, 10:27:50 AM »
The way of the Samurai is found in death.


Yep but the Pony is an American plane. The real problem is that so many new guys jump in a pony and learn to hit n run so early they never real progress( MIdway Syndrome) and they rarely ask the old Pony hands on advise for fighting it.
« Last Edit: December 03, 2012, 10:31:10 AM by Nathan60 »
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Offline tunnelrat

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Re: Kills of P51s
« Reply #80 on: December 03, 2012, 10:44:28 AM »
tunnelrat,

Yup.  BnZ has to be aggressive or you'll never bleed the E out of your opponent.  That is something the guys who run for a sector after each pass don't get.  They aren't really BnZing as there is no element of forcing E starvation on their opponents.  They are simply relying on picking people who didn't see them.


Yeah, I have understood the concept for a long time, but I am just now taking the baby steps to put it into practice...  that, and making much more decisive, e-bleeding moves instead of being conservative and just not making the shot if it doesn't look moderately simple to do...

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Offline nrshida

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Re: Kills of P51s
« Reply #81 on: December 03, 2012, 10:50:45 AM »
No Karnak, that is not the point.


Nathan, perhaps if you have committed to the fight, brought all the advantages your aircraft and position have to bear on your opponent and he still gets the better of you then you should accept your defeat in good grace, consider how you might improve for the next time, and then get a new aircraft.



"If man were meant to fly, he'd have been given an MS Sidewinder"

Offline ink

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Re: Kills of P51s
« Reply #82 on: December 03, 2012, 12:25:00 PM »
No Karnak, that is not the point.


Nathan, perhaps if you have committed to the fight, brought all the advantages your aircraft and position have to bear on your opponent and he still gets the better of you then you should accept your defeat in good grace, consider how you might improve for the next time, and then get a new aircraft.





I knew there was something about you I liked  :salute

Offline Scotch

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Re: Kills of P51s
« Reply #83 on: December 03, 2012, 12:25:54 PM »
I knew there was something about you I liked  :salute

It's his hair.
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Offline nrshida

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Re: Kills of P51s
« Reply #84 on: December 03, 2012, 12:51:13 PM »
I knew there was something about you I liked  :salute

And from this man I learned more about Zen and myself in one fight, than I had for months prior  :salute
"If man were meant to fly, he'd have been given an MS Sidewinder"

Offline ink

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Re: Kills of P51s
« Reply #85 on: December 03, 2012, 01:07:48 PM »
It's his hair.


 :rofl :rofl

And from this man I learned more about Zen and myself in one fight, than I had for months prior  :salute

I am humbled and Honored  :salute


Hows little Shida doing?

you guys are in my thoughts.

Offline nrshida

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Re: Kills of P51s
« Reply #86 on: December 03, 2012, 01:13:25 PM »
Hows little Shida doing?

you guys are in my thoughts.

Little Shida does well thank you. He is 3830 grammes today so he's quite a whopper compared to the 720 grammes he once was.

His Chandelles could use some work but otherwise thriving and happy.  :salute
"If man were meant to fly, he'd have been given an MS Sidewinder"

Offline ink

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Re: Kills of P51s
« Reply #87 on: December 03, 2012, 01:21:04 PM »
Little Shida does well thank you. He is 3830 grammes today so he's quite a whopper compared to the 720 grammes he once was.

His Chandelles could use some work but otherwise thriving and happy.  :salute

that is wonderful bro... :rock :rock.....I am very  happy for you and the Missus.......

Offline CZCH64

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Re: Kills of P51s
« Reply #88 on: December 03, 2012, 01:45:30 PM »
Little Shida does well thank you. He is 3830 grammes today so he's quite a whopper compared to the 720 grammes he once was.

His Chandelles could use some work but otherwise thriving and happy.  :salute

Your son is a preemie? So was our son. 2 pounds, 14 inches. That was 22 years ago.....I remember the sign they put on his incubator. "Welcome to the Kilo club" when he finally hit a kilo.....lol.
aka....... SCRATCH

Offline nrshida

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Re: Kills of P51s
« Reply #89 on: December 03, 2012, 01:47:32 PM »
Yes he was born at 28 weeks.  :salute
"If man were meant to fly, he'd have been given an MS Sidewinder"