Gonzoville charts current?

[Changeup]

Think of it like this; you can minimize turn radius by pulling a tighter circle but you have to slow down to do so.  At the extreme you're deep into the stall buffet and pulling any tighter will induce a stall or at least a wiggle.  That's never good in a fight as you'll lose ground catching it.

You can maximize turn rate by achieving corner speed.  This is never the tightest circle you can turn but it will get you through a 360 degree turn faster than your tightest circle will (which is tighter but slower).  You can still fly faster but at a loss of turn rate (i.e. slower through 360 degrees).

Most planes in AH achive maximum sustained turn rates just as you enter the stall buffer (barely sounding).  The trick then is to know when to tigten the turn to go for angles or to loosen the turn to build E (lead or lag pursuit).

Agreed but remember....the experienced pilot will be watching your decision.  Should you choose corner speed, he will pull harder and force the overshoot....should you choose to pull a tight turn, he will extend.  The balance is in YOUR ability conceal your action and force him to choose first.

Pilot variable.

[nrshida]

Next time your on, lets go to the DA.  If you say the KI will do it, I believe you.  I just want to see it so I can learn how to make the KI do it. 

Aye aye Captain.

I'm really talking about low-e state sustained turning here. In my experience if the Spit 9 / 8 / 16 has any air under his wings and he's losing angles he will always go for an oblique Reverse Half-Cuban Eight, power off and flaps out and retain the e through the bottom loop looking for the shot on the way back up (often a front quarter shot). Realistically a Spit 9 / 8 / 16 with a half reasonable stick should have killed you before the fight degrades to the deck. If he hasn't then he's blown all of his advantages anyway and deserves to die howwibly. Howwibly, howwibly.

I may be wrong, but some of my personal data seems to conflict with some of the printed information for the Hayate including Gonzo's chart and that other sustained turn list. I was unable to find an EM chart with flaps deployed for this aircraft. I once had this out with DozyDuck who claimed the best sustained turn speed for the Hayate was 160-ish with one notch of flaps. I found I could match that turn rate at 150 with two notches. Also I have different figures for left and right sustained flat turns. I don't know what's going on.

The difference in turning with flaps should be a lot greater for the Ki-84 because they also increase the lifting area where the Spitfire's flaps don't (and they are also a lot smaller).

[Badboy]

I was unable to find an EM chart with flaps deployed for this aircraft.

Try this link for EM diagrams of the Ki-84 and Spit16 with and without flaps:

http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,310017.0.html

The difference in turning with flaps should be a lot greater for the Ki-84 because they also increase the lifting area where the Spitfire's flaps don't (and they are also a lot smaller).

Correct, notice in those EM diagrams that the when both aircraft employ flaps, the Ki-84 has the advantage.

That data a bit dated now, but I think the conclusions are all still valid.

Hope that helps...

Badboy

[MOSQ]

To clear things up on DokGonzo's site:

All the turn data comes from the list I did in 2006. The Spit 9 data was incorrect, Karnak spotted that in my thread here on Mosq's Sustained Turn List 2012.  Also, as I recall, DokGonzo imported some of the Spit data incorrectly from my raw data spreadsheet. I'll have to re-check his charts to be sure.

The low level acceleration testing is also from my spreadsheet of 2006. The weapons data came from Hammer. BTW, if you haven't seen Hammer's Net Aces web pages it's worth looking thru at http://www.netaces.org click the Site menu on the left.

So yes, DokGonzo's site is useful, but out of date.

And on the discussion of the KI-84 vs Spit 16, once full flaps are out on both planes they both turn the same radius (well there's a 1.5 ' difference, but I did the testing and I assure you that is within experimental error either way!), but the Ki-84 is turning 2.4 degrees faster in rate, so eventually it will go all the way around the circle and be behind the Spit. They are so closely matched that it really comes down to the pilot that flies perfectly vs the one who makes just the slightest, momentary mistake.

[nrshida]

Try this link for EM diagrams of the Ki-84 and Spit16 with and without flaps:

Hope that helps...

Actually it raised as many questions as it answered. Do you have a blank EM diagram template you are willing to share Badboy, I would like to plot another comparison.

And on the discussion of the KI-84 vs Spit 16, once full flaps are out on both planes they both turn the same radius (well there's a 1.5 ' difference, but I did the testing and I assure you that is within experimental error either way!), but the Ki-84 is turning 2.4 degrees faster in rate, so eventually it will go all the way around the circle and be behind the Spit. They are so closely matched that it really comes down to the pilot that flies perfectly vs the one who makes just the slightest, momentary mistake.

Assuming the Ki-84 survives long enough to reach the stage where both have their flaps out turning nose to tail. Before that point the Spit16 holds a number of significant advantages.

[Badboy]

Actually it raised as many questions as it answered.

Well ask the questions, I'll try to answer.

Do you have a blank EM diagram template you are willing to share Badboy, I would like to plot another comparison.

Is this the kind of thing you mean?

http://www.leonbadboysmith.com/Files/Doghouse.pdf

Assuming the Ki-84 survives long enough to reach the stage where both have their flaps out turning nose to tail.

Also, the spit can fight the Ki-84 without using his flaps at all, if he knows how to avoid the need to do so.

Hope that helps...

Badboy

[RotBaron]

Thanks for all the input here, it's very helpful.

 

Rot

[nrshida]

Well ask the questions, I'll try to answer.

Thank you but I like to find the solutions for myself. Perhaps I'll share my conclusions.

Is this the kind of thing you mean?

http://www.leonbadboysmith.com/Files/Doghouse.pdf

Yes, or if you'd care to share your blue one without the blue and red plots on it for consistency.

Also, the spit can fight the Ki-84 without using his flaps at all, if he knows how to avoid the need to do so.

I seldom encounter that flying style, usually they turn as aggressively as possible.

[tunnelrat]

Spit 9 / 8 / 16 has any air under his wings and he's losing angles he will always go for an oblique Reverse Half-Cuban Eight, power off and flaps out and retain the e through the bottom loop looking for the shot on the way back up (often a front quarter shot).

 

I get to a point where I think I am starting to "get it" then you go and pull out this half-caff soy latte with a double dribble twist action....

[Changeup]

I get to a point where I think I am starting to "get it" then you go and pull out this half-caff soy latte with a double dribble twist action....

(Image removed from quote.)

You didn't really believe you'd get it that fast did you?

[Triton28]

You didn't really believe you'd get it that fast did you?

  No. 

[Changeup]

Gonzo charts suck.

GO HERE>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,343697.0.html and bring Clint Eastwoods azz....he'll die just as well as anyone I suppose.


(kidding Gonzo...I live by them)

[FLS]

Thanks for all the input here, it's very helpful.

 

Rot

One thing to keep in mind is that those charts are for a given weight, probably 25% fuel load, and the turn, acceleration, and climb rates will be different when lighter or heavier.