Vertical Scissors and rudder usage

[WarnersWorld]

Hi everyone,

I am trying to understand how the use of  "cross-control" rudder within a vertical scissor maneuver helps to move your lift vector behind your opponents as noted by this post.

http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,184939.msg3353011.html#msg3353011

While I'm not questioning this as fact, I have spent the last 10 minutes with my hands as planes trying to see where and when to use rudder and how it changes the lift vector! I`m sure im missing something simple but its just not clicking

If anyone can explain this in a way my feeble mind might be able to understand I would be most grateful

Many Thanks

[The Fugitive]

Well according to Mace you DON'T want to use it in a rolling scissor because as it is not a coordinated turn/maneuver. Its great for bleeding speed, and may be useful if your opponent has less E and so you need to slow to match his speed or get to your best corning speed.

quoted from Maces post...

"It's great for bleeding off excessive speed in a dive or to drop in behind someone co-speed but for a rolling scissors you want to fly efficiently which means coordinated flight, not cross control so, as a general rule, there is no time that true cross controls should be used in a rolling scissors unless, perhaps, you enter the scissors with lots more e than your opponent."

[Scotch]

But he's talking about in the vertical.

I use rudder. My goal is creating an overshoot rather than trying to sustain a long rolling scissors on a vertical axis. Which in itself is unsustainable because you'll either run out of e or hit the ground. Using rudder both slows me down and keeps me out of plane of the enemies guns.

[mtnman]

Hi everyone,

I am trying to understand how the use of  "cross-control" rudder within a vertical scissor maneuver helps to move your lift vector behind your opponents as noted by this post.

http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,184939.msg3353011.html#msg3353011

While I'm not questioning this as fact, I have spent the last 10 minutes with my hands as planes trying to see where and when to use rudder and how it changes the lift vector! I`m sure im missing something simple but its just not clicking

If anyone can explain this in a way my feeble mind might be able to understand I would be most grateful

Many Thanks

Cross-controlling drastically increases drag, so slows you down quicker.  Depending upon your orientation vs. the orientation of your opponent, it could also be used to allow your opponent to pull out in front of you...  It doesn't really move yours "back", it just slows you down...

It puts your plane into a skid.

It can also "open up" your turns and rolls.  That can be beneficial or detrimental, depending upon the situation.  If your inside wing is stalling and threatening to drop, a touch of opposite rudder can potentially delay that (at the expense of widening your turn and bleeding more energy faster; potentially setting you up for an even worse stall a few seconds later.  Nothing is free).

Personally, I fly the F4U's almost exclusively, and use the rolling scissors as a go-to maneuver for MANY of my kills.  

My philosophy is such that I will do everything I can to use the geometry of the maneuver to lag behind my opponent, while keeping every last shred of energy that I can.  I do my absolute best to begin in front of my opponent, and allow him to fly past me, but I want to lose the absolute least energy/speed possible.  I want to have enough speed so that as he passes he cannot get away.  An ideal situation for me is for my opponent to end up in front of me, but in a worse E-state than I have.

So for me, cross-controlling is almost always undesirable.

Many pilots will try to rapidly slow down and allow their opponent to fly past with a higher speed.  I try NOT to slow down.  I slow down anyway of course, but do my best not to.  I "use" the fact that my opponent thinks I'm trying to slow down to my benefit.

[morfiend]

 I could be wrong but I think the OP is confusing opposite rudder with "cross control" rudder,that is if I read what he's say correctly.

  There would be a time when some opposite rudder might change your angle of attack and allow you to place your lift vector on the enemy's long 6.


  I do agree with the fact it burns E but then I tend to think most over use the rudder.


     YMMV.


 

[WarnersWorld]

Many thanks everyone,

firstly,

while I understand that true "cross-control" will bleed of E and is at most times not required it was the following sentence I was trying to address

You can use a small amount of opposite rudder to "trim" your nose position to keep your lift vector behind your opponent but you have to be careful and not look at where your nose is pointing but where your aircraft is actually going.

It was this small amount of rudder that I was trying to understand, and how its use will help in changing your lift vector. My difficulty in trying to understand this is because as I see it your Lift vector is essentially an imaginary line extending vertically from your canopy and as the rudder produces a yawing effect I cant see how this would effect your lift vector.

If I was flying straight and level and apply rudder, does my lift vector change? If so how? and if not how does the fact that I am not flying straight and level change this behaviour?

As I said I'm sure its something that just isn't 'clicking' with me and I'm sure the advice is valid, I would just like to understand it!

Once again, Many thanks 

[WarnersWorld]

I could be wrong but I think the OP is confusing opposite rudder with "cross control" rudder,that is if I read what he's say correctly.

  There would be a time when some opposite rudder might change your angle of attack and allow you to place your lift vector on the enemy's long 6.


  I do agree with the fact it burns E but then I tend to think most over use the rudder.


     YMMV.


 

Morfiend,

I think this might have made it click, is it the fact that the rudder is not in a vertical plane, and therefore isn't acting as just a yawing moment put also effecting the pitch of your aircraft?

If so it was the "change your angle of attack" statement that made this finally click and therefore many thanks

 

[Mace2004]

Many thanks everyone,

firstly,

while I understand that true "cross-control" will bleed of E and is at most times not required it was the following sentence I was trying to address

It was this small amount of rudder that I was trying to understand, and how its use will help in changing your lift vector. My difficulty in trying to understand this is because as I see it your Lift vector is essentially an imaginary line extending vertically from your canopy and as the rudder produces a yawing effect I cant see how this would effect your lift vector.

If I was flying straight and level and apply rudder, does my lift vector change? If so how? and if not how does the fact that I am not flying straight and level change this behaviour?

As I said I'm sure its something that just isn't 'clicking' with me and I'm sure the advice is valid, I would just like to understand it!

Once again, Many thanks  

Sorry, but I can see how I was confusing here.  What I was talking about is that part of a scissors as you come over the top and are slow.  Say that at that point you see that your lift vector is on or even slightly ahead of the target.  By yawing a small amount away from the downrange travel (which would be some cross countrol) you can influence your flightpath to slow your downrange travel a little.  You're basically steepening your helix by using engine thrust to offset your flightpath a small amount.  It's not an extremely effective move or one to really worry about, just a bit of technique that can help a bit.  Did I clairify this or just confuse things more?

[morfiend]

Morfiend,

I think this might have made it click, is it the fact that the rudder is not in a vertical plane, and therefore isn't acting as just a yawing moment put also effecting the pitch of your aircraft?

If so it was the "change your angle of attack" statement that made this finally click and therefore many thanks

 

  If you read Mace's post above,he explains it much more elegantly than I could.

  Your post about flying level and yawing the plane isn't really applicable,some opposite rudder on the up leg or down leg of a rolling scissor will change your angle of attack where as in level flight it wont.

  However I will defer to Mace as he has the uncanny ability to put things in laymans terms that most can understand.