GV Armor quiz

[bangsbox]

The problem is not a big one - you need to hit a piece of the tank that's maybe a few pixels tall. Practically impossible to do repeatedly if the enemy moves or there's typical combat distance. If you manage to sneak behind a Tiger then it's a whole different story though

Where is this fabled "weak spot" that's pixels tall on a tiger that is vulnerable to an M8?
I posted a thread M8 vs tiger not long ago. In it I provided a sweet pic of me bouncing 10+ rounds off the rear hull and rear turret of a tiger from 10ft away.

[tunnelrat]

On a Panther, get in your M3/75 and aim for that little door at the back, takes like two shots 

[bangsbox]

m3 has same gun as the M4 75mm sherman (penetration charts confirm this 91-0k... 80-1k... 70-2k)

so u dont need a rear shot to kill a panther in an M3...(side and chin will do it as well, within 2 shots)

also panthers are weak compared to tigers, especially in the sides and rear

[Vinkman]

I've always maintained that there are 2 trump cards in the tank game that most people forget about: range and angle of impact.  Also, while the data of the AP make state something the one thing that is not made mention of is the ability of the round to cause damage once it defeats the armor.  A person can do everything right "on paper" and somehow in game it does not add up. Case in point is the T34/85, that thing on paper has an AP behind the Panzer IV H, M4/76mm (and M18), and only a few mm ahead of the Panzer IV F/2, yet is is able to pull off some amazing shots, certainly the weight of the projectile has something to do with it.

The Panther is actually safer vs some tanks up close (1000 yd) vs further away (1600-2000).  Why?  Angle of impact. Take a look at the Panther's frontal armor. It is 80mm thick.  The Panzer IV also has 80mm frontal armor.  However, the Panther's armor is sloped back at an angle which facilitates 2 things: it allows for a great chance of deflection and it artificially thickens the armor.  When the Panther is closer and the trajectory of the incoming round is more flat the round has a better chance of being deflected.  But back the Panther up to 1600-2000 yards and increase the trajectory and the angle of impact is much closer to 90° that what it was at 1000 yards. At some point the incoming rounds are not going to be able to defeat 80mm of armor and when that happens the Panther is in its "safe" zone.  It certainly is not always as easy as "tank A vs tank B". 

At 2000 yards the Panzer IV H can defeat 98mm of armor.  At 1000 yards the same tank can defeat 115mm of armor.  If I'm in a Panther I'd rather take a few hits to my hull from 1000 yards than 2000 yards, more often than not the incoming rounds go skyward.   

Has that been tested with data from the game? In theory those factors matter, but wouldn't the velocity drop of a projectile that followed a trajectory leading to 90 deg angle at impact be too slow to penetrate 80mm of armor? At table showing the angle at impact of the incoming round with corresponding velocities, by distance fired (both on level ground) would be helpfull. I could make one up from first principles, but I'll bet the gunnery fellas in here have something already.

Thoughts?

[tunnelrat]

m3 has same gun as the M4 75mm sherman (penetration charts confirm this 91-0k... 80-1k... 70-2k)

so u dont need a rear shot to kill a panther in an M3...(side and chin will do it as well, within 2 shots)

also panthers are weak compared to tigers, especially in the sides and rear

I usually stay behind them simply because their coax can put you in the tower quite fast.

It's always taken two hits to the 6'oclock at PBR to kill a Panther.

[bangsbox]

Has that been tested with data from the game? In theory those factors matter, but wouldn't the velocity drop of a projectile that followed a trajectory leading to 90 deg angle at impact be too slow to penetrate 80mm of armor? At table showing the angle at impact of the incoming round with corresponding velocities, by distance fired (both on level ground) would be helpfull. I could make one up from first principles, but I'll bet the gunnery fellas in here have something already.

Thoughts?

depends on penetration the round has at impact distance. at 1k an m3/m4 sherman can penetrate 80mm. it also has a low velocity so it has a better chance of impacting at 90degrees on sloped armour

[bj229r]

I'm sure the thing that killed my panther was an HVAP.....but at 1k or so, would seem the trajectory is nearly flat, thus maximum amount of armor to penetrate. I'm starting to question the use of the panther at all....they seem to die quite easily from ALL directions,...the Tiger 1 is twice the point risk, but at least it can take a few hits

[MrRiplEy[H]]

Where is this fabled "weak spot" that's pixels tall on a tiger that is vulnerable to an M8?
I posted a thread M8 vs tiger not long ago. In it I provided a sweet pic of me bouncing 10+ rounds off the rear hull and rear turret of a tiger from 10ft away.

I'll show it after it gets patched.

[Lusche]

I'm starting to question the use of the panther at all....they seem to die quite easily from ALL directions,...the Tiger 1 is twice the point risk, but at least it can take a few hits

If you look at the K/D's over the past tours, the Tiger I dies much, much more often than the Panther, despite being used more defensively (= more near concrete) due to it's higher perk cost. Last tour for example, the Panther had K/D 4.46, the Tiger I 2.29. In AH, that's literally worlds apart. Especially if you take into account the much higher usage of the Panther.

It's the combination of factors that make the Panther such a great tank in AH. Very powerful gun, reasonable armor, high mobility, good turret traverse rate. In contrast to that, the Tiger I is more limited by it's slower speed and very much by it's slow turret traverse.

[SmokinLoon]

Has that been tested with data from the game? In theory those factors matter, but wouldn't the velocity drop of a projectile that followed a trajectory leading to 90 deg angle at impact be too slow to penetrate 80mm of armor? At table showing the angle at impact of the incoming round with corresponding velocities, by distance fired (both on level ground) would be helpfull. I could make one up from first principles, but I'll bet the gunnery fellas in here have something already.

Thoughts?

Deflection is a bigger issue than AP.  In the case of the Panther's front hull this is the case more often than not.  Like I pointed out earlier, take a buddy in to the DA and 1 up a Panther and the other up various tanks and start from 600 yards and work your way back to 2000 yards.  You will find that vs the M4/76 the Panther will do very well up close from 400-800 yards, and from 1600 yards back.  In the case of the M4/76mm at 1600 yards vs the Panther the AP ability and trajectory both behind the curve and unless everything is perfect for the M4/76 it is going to have a very difficult time defeating the Panther from the front.  In your testing, do your best to get the incoming round to be a direct head on hit from the front and let the armor speak for itself.  At the closer ranges the rounds will ricochet or defeat the armor.  At longer ranges 1 of 3 things can happen (ricochet, be absorbed, or defeat the armor).

I've done quite a bit of testing in the DA with squad members testing out the better armored tanks vs various AP rounds. The King Tiger and Tiger are truly the kings of the battlefield in terms of armor, and the Panther is close behind in terms of frontal hull armor at particular ranges (front turret armor on Panther is every bit as good as Tiger).  When I am sitting at 2000 yards from an group of enemy tanks, I almost have no fear if I'm in a Tiger or Panther. Only the KT (extremely rare away from a defending gv base), the Firefly (rare in general), the Panther (less common), and Tiger (less common), are only a threat thanks to 2 factors: sights and AP ability.  If T34/85 engages me at 2000 yards he truly is peeing in the wind because he can barely see me. The Panzer IV's and M4/76 and M18 are a threat thanks to their AP round, but it is like expecting a lightweight boxer to throw a knockout punch vs a heavyweight boxer, meaning the impact needs to be very close to °90 for their round to defeat the Panther's front hull armor, and the Tiger has 102mm frontal armor so it is safe regardless.

I'll take this time again to invite anyone to PM me their email and I will forward on them a spreadsheet showing gv data, it make be helpful to a great many people. It has info showing AP ability, HE ability, rate of fire, turret traverse speeds, turning radius, acceleration speeds, armor, MG's, smoke ability, ammo capacity, etc, etc.  It is in .pdf form and any and everyone can pass it around and post it where ever they'd like.       

[Wiley]

Curiosity question about the metal boxes I wait to die in.  I see by some of the posts it taking multiple shots to kill different tanks.  I assume this means 2 shots that penetrate the armor.

If shots don't penetrate, do they have any effect on the tank/armor at all?  Put another way, suppose I come up on a tank and shoot at it.  At the range and angle of my shot, it bounces off.  If everything stays still and I keep firing at that identical point, can I run my entire clip into it without affecting it?  It's just something I've always been curious about and never seen mentioned.

Wiley.

[SmokinLoon]

Curiosity question about the metal boxes I wait to die in.  I see by some of the posts it taking multiple shots to kill different tanks.  I assume this means 2 shots that penetrate the armor.

If shots don't penetrate, do they have any effect on the tank/armor at all?  Put another way, suppose I come up on a tank and shoot at it.  At the range and angle of my shot, it bounces off.  If everything stays still and I keep firing at that identical point, can I run my entire clip into it without affecting it?  It's just something I've always been curious about and never seen mentioned.

Wiley.

I'm not sure.  Some say that there are "hit points" to a piece of armor, and some say not.  I know that in real like the chances of an AP round hitting exactly in the same place twice is slim and none.  Also, keep in mind that HE and AP affect gv's in different ways.   

[MrRiplEy[H]]

Curiosity question about the metal boxes I wait to die in.  I see by some of the posts it taking multiple shots to kill different tanks.  I assume this means 2 shots that penetrate the armor.

If shots don't penetrate, do they have any effect on the tank/armor at all?  Put another way, suppose I come up on a tank and shoot at it.  At the range and angle of my shot, it bounces off.  If everything stays still and I keep firing at that identical point, can I run my entire clip into it without affecting it?  It's just something I've always been curious about and never seen mentioned.

Wiley.

When the round bounces there's either very small damage being done or no damage, hard to tell. You'll spend the whole day killing someone with bouncing shots anyway.

[bangsbox]

When the round bounces there's either very small damage being done or no damage, hard to tell. You'll spend the whole day killing someone with bouncing shots anyway.

True, but if there is a little damage from a bounce, them the next thing that hits you has a better chance of breaking something or killing you. Thus even after a bounce, its a good idea to use sups...which I'm not really in favor of

[SmokinLoon]

True, but if there is a little damage from a bounce, them the next thing that hits you has a better chance of breaking something or killing you. Thus even after a bounce, its a good idea to use sups...which I'm not really in favor of

But the odds of a person hitting the exact same spot is slim and none especially if the ranges are longer.  I for one do not panic once I've taken a hit and it is deflected, some players start begging like a little girl in a doll shop for someone to bring them gv supplies to "fix" their armor.