Author Topic: Unrecoverable stall/spin in ta152  (Read 5028 times)

Offline Daddkev

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Re: Unrecoverable stall/spin in ta152
« Reply #165 on: February 08, 2013, 10:05:22 AM »
 :huh :huh :huh :huh :headscratch: :headscratch: :headscratch: :headscratch: :headscratch: :headscratch: :headscratch: :headscratch: :huh :huh :huh :huh
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Offline ALFAMEGA51

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Re: Unrecoverable stall/spin in ta152
« Reply #166 on: February 08, 2013, 10:45:00 AM »
I just wanted to say this thread is full of win, an ego burt for you, and an ego burst for you!  :rofl
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Offline Tank-Ace

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Re: Unrecoverable stall/spin in ta152
« Reply #167 on: February 08, 2013, 06:36:58 PM »
Krusty, in WWII, an armored aircraft had maybe 10mm-20mm of armor. Maybe. IIRC, the F8s had something like 12mm on the engine.The Il2 would fall to the heavier end of that range, but its not even close to hauling around enough armor to necessitate a 30mm to kill.

P-47s were also more heavily armored, but even machine gun fire would be sufficient to kill them. US fighters could be called rugged more than well armored. You'll chew the hell out of the wing... it just wouldn't snap off like a Spitfire's.

 As to the P-40, the Japanese fighters, which were even less well armed could bring them down.


Also, most MK108s mounted on 190s were rüstaze or Umrust-Bustaze kits specifically designed to improve efficiency at engaging bombers.

I never said all were bomber hunters, only that MOST TENDED to be for hunting bombers.

The K4 got it for reasons of standardisation. G models just supposed to be more heavily armed for general operations.

 Also, the Ta 154, He 219, 110 G4 all were built as night fighters, all had 30mms.
You started this thread and it was obviously about your want and desire in spite of your use of 'we' and Google.

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Offline Ack-Ack

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Re: Unrecoverable stall/spin in ta152
« Reply #168 on: February 08, 2013, 08:00:13 PM »
Challenge is so far off as to not be worthy of response, but...

Wrong, wrong, and wrong, on all 3 points.

First off, P-47s WERE repeatedly taking astounding amounts of damage, even blowing piston heads out of the engine, and still making it back to base. P-38s were rather rugged as well, and with the engine redundancy were able to make it home with 1 dead engine (someing most other fighters could not). Further, all the way from the first time the US planes encountered German planes, in the deserts of Africa, the P-40s were quite sturdy as well. They soaked up quite a lot of ammo. The few super-experten aces were able to land hits where they counted, but for the average german pilot, US planes were frustratingly tough to take down.

To follow along with this point, as early as 1942 Operation Barbarrosa began on the Soviet front. Here the super-rugged construction of Soviet aircraft began to be a major problem. Fighters weren't so resilient as were the bombers and attackers, which were armored. The IL-2s were literally armored bathtubs around the engine and crew compartment. Repeatedly IL-2s could soak up multiple attacks from German fighters and the Germans would break off after expending all ammo. Fw190s had a better time of it, but they still soaked up 20mm. If you look at the push and development of the 30mm Mk108 you will find it coincides with the increasing toughness of the single engine aircraft, NOT the skies-full-of-heavy-bombers, which weren't a problem at the time.



Rheinmetall-Borsig started to develop the Mk 108 as a private venture in 1940 and submitted to the RLM in 1942 in response to a requirement set by the RLM for a heavy weapon mounted on aircraft for use against Allied heavy bombers which were appearing in large numbers by then over German controlled regions.  It wasn't submitted as a response to the increasing ruggedness of Allied fighters like you claimed.

Testing of the MK 108 showed that it only took an average of 4 30mm rounds to shoot down a B-17 or B-24, compared the average of 25 rounds from a 20mm MG 151/120 cannon.

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Offline Krusty

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Re: Unrecoverable stall/spin in ta152
« Reply #169 on: February 08, 2013, 11:10:52 PM »
Rheinmetall-Borsig started to develop the Mk 108 as a private venture in 1940 and submitted to the RLM in 1942 in response to a requirement set by the RLM for a heavy weapon mounted on aircraft for use against Allied heavy bombers which were appearing in large numbers by then over German controlled regions.  It wasn't submitted as a response to the increasing ruggedness of Allied fighters like you claimed.

Testing of the MK 108 showed that it only took an average of 4 30mm rounds to shoot down a B-17 or B-24, compared the average of 25 rounds from a 20mm MG 151/120 cannon.

ack-ack


Way to copy and past wiki, there, ack-ack...

Yes, I am aware of the testing and rounds required to take down bombers. I have also read a number of references and citations over the decades I've been reading up on the subject that directly attribute the need with the rising loss of expert fighter pilots and the rising number of completely unskilled replacement pilots.

I could draw a parallel to the Soviets and their very untrained pilots in the first half of the war -- despite relying on an ariframe that carried one of the worst 37mm guns of its time, they racked up many kills in P-39s, and later in Yaks with 37mm also. Soviet pilot training was slow and lethargic and wholly unimpressive. By the final days of the war they were putting out fresh pilots trained as well as any other nation, but up until then it was woefully inadequate. Yet with a weapon that killed in less shots those unskilled pilots were able to kill and move on to other targets much faster.

So, yes, while it was beneficial to taking out US heavy bombers, many members of the RLM felt that there was no need for such a weapon against heavy bombers until US heavy bombers were encountered in 1943. Well AFTER the initial development began on the gun. This RLM denial of the issue at hand is one reason for the sluggish progress on the Mk108, even though line pilots were starting to feel the hit.

They couldn't have known how hard US bombers were to shoot down until they actually encountered them. RAF Bomber Command was almost entirely running night bombing at the time. Daylight fighters weren't being used to hunt down RAF heavies. That was the job of the night fighters (Ju88s and 110s). Galland up-gunned his 109Fs, if you recall, adding MG/FFm outboard and upgunning the 7mms to 13mms. This was before US heavy bombers were even a threat. 109F-2s were upgunned from the flat-trajectory MG151 15mm cannons to MG151/20 20mm because there just wasn't enough firepower. 109Gs were being geared for heavier weapons loads (multiple gunpods). All of this is before any US bombers were even on the scene.

Besides, if I recall, the Mk108 met the requirements of an order that said the RLM wanted a weapon that could be fired from outside bomber defenses... Not that it was to take down the bomber in 5 hits or so. The Mk108 met this requirement, but it was already being developed anyways. It was a scaled-up version of the MG/FF cannon. It just so happened to meet one of the RLM requirements so it was given specific attention.

Offline Ack-Ack

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Re: Unrecoverable stall/spin in ta152
« Reply #170 on: February 08, 2013, 11:23:28 PM »
Quote
In 1942, the Reichsluftfahrtministerium (RLM - Reich Aviation Ministry) issued a requirement for a heavy aircraft weapon for use against Allied bombers during World War II. In response to the RLM, Rheinmetall-Borsig submitted its design for the Mk 108. The MK 108 was a 30 mm caliber auto-cannon developed as a private venture in 1940. The Mk 108 was accepted by the RLM and quickly ordered into production.

The gun was relatively light and easy to manufacture. The construction was simple with approximately 80% of the gun used stamped parts and the total number of parts kept to a bare minimum. It proved to be an effective and very reliable weapon and was optimized for a high rate of fire. Weapon maintenance was minimal and its compact size made it suitable for aircraft use.

It had a relatively low muzzle velocity and was designed to attack bombers and not fighter aircraft. The bullet drop was 41 m (135 ft) at a range of 1,000 meters (3,300 ft). To be effective it was necessary for fighter aircraft to get in close to 200 to 300 meters, making it especially challenging for the Me 262, with its high approach speed, to hit the target without colliding into it.

Source

Another source
Quote
In many ways, the Rheinmetall-Borsig MK 108 30mm cannon was considered to be a masterpiece of weapons engineering, due to it's compact size, ease of manufacture and hitting power. Although it was first designed by Rheinmetall-Borsig in 1940 as a private venture, the design was finalized in 1942. It met a later RLM requirement for a new aircraft cannon that could knock down enemy bombers with the lowest expenditure of ammunition and stay beyond the range of enemy defensive fire.

If you have any sources you can cite that say otherwise, by all means post them.

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Offline Tank-Ace

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Re: Unrecoverable stall/spin in ta152
« Reply #171 on: February 08, 2013, 11:44:10 PM »
He won't AKAK. At least not enough to creditable ones to contradict weapons development, fighter design and upgrades, and RLM requirements.

Krusty, you're the biggest BSer and outright liar on the BBS, and everyone knows it. The only thing in question on this subject is if YOU know exactly how wrong you are.
You started this thread and it was obviously about your want and desire in spite of your use of 'we' and Google.

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Offline Chalenge

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Re: Unrecoverable stall/spin in ta152
« Reply #172 on: February 09, 2013, 09:41:02 PM »
The quintessential book on the topic of the Ta152 was first mentioned in a press release by the Monogram model company, if memory serves. Many of us waited with great expectation as the company continued to postpone the release date years after the initial announcement.

The wait was worth it, but you would be hard pressed to find a copy of this book today, at least at a reasonable price. In fact, the cheapest I have been able to find a copy listed for, is $125.

This is the book on the Ta152, and undisputed source for every detail of this aircraft.

Focke-Wulf Ta 152, T.H. Hitchcock,  Eagle Editions (May 15, 2010), ISBN-10: 0914144502.

From the Introduction the author summarises the presentation this way:



End game.
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Offline kilo2

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Re: Unrecoverable stall/spin in ta152
« Reply #173 on: February 09, 2013, 09:58:33 PM »


Yeah I got my copy when the book was released. Signed by Willi Reschke.
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Offline Chalenge

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Re: Unrecoverable stall/spin in ta152
« Reply #174 on: February 09, 2013, 10:36:09 PM »
I think a lot of them are signed, actually.

Also, I stand corrected. You can find this at Squadron for a little more than $60.
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Offline Wmaker

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Re: Unrecoverable stall/spin in ta152
« Reply #175 on: February 11, 2013, 09:47:45 AM »
The Mk108 met this requirement, but it was already being developed anyways. It was a scaled-up version of the MG/FF cannon.

MK108 isn't an scaled-up version of the MG/FF.  Both have the same working principle (API Blowback) but that is where the similarities end. As mentioned in this thread, MK108 was an original Rheinmetall-Borsig design constructed using largely stamped parts (very unique feature of the MK108 and totally different than the more traditional MG/FF). MG/FF on the other hand has its roots in the Becker 20mm which was the first API Blowback cannon in the world.

MG/FF:


MK108:





MG/FF and MK108 are two separate designs.
« Last Edit: February 11, 2013, 09:49:30 AM by Wmaker »
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Offline Krusty

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Re: Unrecoverable stall/spin in ta152
« Reply #176 on: February 11, 2013, 02:33:09 PM »
MK108 isn't an scaled-up version of the MG/FF.

MG/FF and MK108 are two separate designs.

You're being far too literal. The design started inception with the MG/FF and worked from there. Naturally it is NOT an MG/FF, but that's what I've read was the origin of its design.

Offline Wmaker

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Re: Unrecoverable stall/spin in ta152
« Reply #177 on: February 11, 2013, 03:09:40 PM »
You're being far too literal.

No I'm not. I'm simply telling how it is. MG/FF was originally developed by Oerlikon and then later manufactured under licence by Ikaria. MK108 on the other hand was developed by Rheinmetall-Borsig. Two different firms and two different cannons.

A good source: http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk/apib.html


The design started inception with the MG/FF and worked from there.

What does this even mean? :)


Naturally it is NOT an MG/FF, but that's what I've read was the origin of its design.

Where exactly did you read that MG FF was the origin of MK108-design? A source please?
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Offline Tank-Ace

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Re: Unrecoverable stall/spin in ta152
« Reply #178 on: February 11, 2013, 06:12:42 PM »
MK 108 and the GAU-8 are 30mm and both are aircraft weapons. The GAU is an upscaled MK108 :O!!!

*inception theme*
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Offline MajWoody

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Re: Unrecoverable stall/spin in ta152
« Reply #179 on: February 12, 2013, 12:20:17 AM »
.
Lets keep the stupid to a minimum.
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