Whose next?

[AKDejaVu]

 

"rank" is a function of time spent online. Someone ranked 89 in a fighter is not 10 times better than someone ranked 890 in fact... There is a very good chance that the guy ranked 890 is far more dangerous.

I've spent less time in a fighter than you Lazs, and I'm ranked higher.  I wonder why that is?  Oh yeah, it is because people refuse to admit that hitting with less than 5% of their rounds should affect their overall score.  

You really need to work on that accuracy

The fighter ranking is usually a pretty decent way to tell if anyone is halfway formidable behind the stick.  If they aren't in the top 200, they probably aren't super lethal.  Being in the top 200 (Fighter rankings) does not guarantee MaD PiLoT SkiLLz, but most that fit into that category are there.

The overall rankings are more of a measurement of how diverse someone choses to be.  Sturm has that area covered better than you.  You'd rather sit back and fly one particular type of sortie, then downplay anyone that doesn't do the same.  Its your choice how you want to fly, it just seems petty to criticize others for how they chose to fly.  Ah.. but that's a long dead horse by now.

As for the idea of rank.. well.. that's more of a label than anything else.  Someone feeling high and mighty about being CO of a squad they just started a month ago pretty much speaks for itself.  As does the fact that you seem to have such a problem with it.

AKDejaVu

[Drex]

wow your right about the rounds being calculated into the score!  That is funny that higher accuracy is taken into account.  Flying on the defensive end and living off the reversal will give you a lower accuracy then in the saddle, but can yeild more kills.  Different ways of fighting shouldn't be penalized.  The guy who takes his time in a situation and gets his kills slower shouldn't be penalized against the guy who gets a kill quick.  They both end up at the same result a kill.  The other is true with gunnery.  You take a guy with .17% gunnery who gets a kill and a guy with .04% gunnery who gets a kill you end up with the same result.  Which is tracked in K/S or K/T.

4.667 K/D
3.333 K/S
.0023 K/T
.056 Gunnery %

wow I'm ranked 18th in fighters and the only thing different from me and the #1 spot is that I have a higher K/D, higher K/S, more Kills/time, more kills,and more fighter points(whatever the heck that is).

Man that gunnery is important!

This isn't a post about I want that spot.  Just your comment about gunnery got my investigative juices going and was surprised that it was true.  This debate is always brought up in conventions or lectures.  Gunnery is important, and can be quantified in a pilots overall efficiency, but it is not a value that is more or even remotely close to getting the kill and not getting killed.

Maybe I have the wrong outlook on this fighter thing.

Drex

[AKDejaVu]

Gunnery isn't ranked as more important.. its just that so few people take it seriously that it isn't difficult to excell in this particular category.  K/D is a hard one to stand out in because virtually everyone takes that stat seriously (that's why we are here).

I kinda liken it to the 10 Ten kills in a plane lists... its easier to make the list in the planes nobody pays attention to.

AKDejaVu

[Lephturn]

It's kindof a double edged sword.  On one hand, I guess you don't want to reward the folks that "spray and pray" as much as the dead-eyed killers.  On the other hand, having lots of ammo is a tactical advantage to some planes that you shouldn't be penalized for taking advantage of.  I fly the Jug, so I don't HAVE to hit with anything more than about 3% of my shots to be plenty deady.  I have loads of ammo, so I tend to try deflection shots and snapshots that are very low percentage.  They rarely pay off... but what the hell, I can't remember the last time I RTB'd the Jug with no ammo.  

I never look at that score thing anyway.  All I care about is the stats page, and even then I only really look at how I do in the Jug.

------------------
Sean "Lephturn" Conrad - Aces High Chief Trainer

A proud member of the mighty Flying Pigs
http://www.flyingpigs.com

Check out Lephturn's Aerodrome for AH articles and training info!

[AKDejaVu]

I like the stats page more too Lephturn.  The gunnery % is really the only real use I can find for the score page

AKDejaVu

[Ripsnort]

You know what they say about stats, same thing as they do about excuses:

"Excuses only satisfy those who make them"
"Stats only satisfy those who look at them"

Actually, the only person who really cares about your personal stats are you!  

[AKDejaVu]

Actually rip, the only person that cares if your personal stats are good is you.

..but people are more than happy to point out when they are bad.

AKDejaVu

[Drex]

Gunnery could be broken down into distance and off angle shooting for a stat.  IF you could track how far and where you hit the bandit with relation to your nose it would be useful. That would be a fun chart to look at to see a graph out to a 1000 yards and what ever the aspect was off your nose.  Then have a gunnery percentage for different distances and snapshots.


Gunnery isn't just 100 yards behind the bogey and tag him.  Though your ultimate goal is to use ACM to achieve that stance. Multiple engagements, reversals, and the inflow of continuous planes into a fight negates that.  A very good reversal after the initial bounce will give you a kill at about 450-600 yards and your percentage of a kill is high, but your gunnery percentage will be low.  There is so many factors that go into gunnery that a simple % doesn't tell someones effectiveness.

Drex

[AKDejaVu]

 

There is so many factors that go into gunnery that a simple % doesn't tell someones effectiveness.

This is true of any category Drex.  In and of itself it doesn't tell you anything.

I found that my gunnery in the Yak is much higher than my gunnery in the .50 planes.  Basically because the Yak is completely innefective outside of 500 yards.. thus closer shots.  But I don't have as good of a view over the nose and have to sacrifice some on deflection shots... basically.. the pros and cons somewhat work out, but not completley.

HTC models the stats in different categories because they know that no one category tells the story.  K/D isn't worth much if its a pilot that only engages helpless victims.  K/S isn't worth much if the pilot simply rearms/refuels until he gets 5 kills.  K/T isn't worth much if the pilot continually dies HO'ing every time.  Gunnery isn't worth much if the pilot can't hit something when he has to in order to save his ass.

I like the idea of keeping them equal in value because it doesn't show preferential treatment to one category.  It doesn't take much of an increase in gunnery to boost your rankings now, but if more people started doing it... well, the top 10 ranked fighter pilots would see a few new names.

BTW Drex, I'm not really looking forward to the idea of you improving your gunnery

AKDejaVu

[Drex]

Stats have a bad rap because they are used to put you ahead or below someone.  That should not be their purpose.  We have an overally simplified stat gathering process.

If we are going to use it for ranking, and put a value on measuring efficency, then I will put my .02 cents into the pot.  Putting a value on a certain part of combat would be a complicated formula.  There are to many variables that change every second in a fight to be accurate in measuring someones effectiveness.  

If you are going to have stats have stats don't put a value to any of them(which I would like).  If your going to have stats with a value tagged on.  Then you will have to go deeper into the thinking of what makes up each aspect of combat and track those stats.      

Drex

[Drex]

Yeppers your all over it DJ.  How do you track the situation and current enviroment of the fight?

Plane types(values for visibilty, maneuverability, speed at certain altitudes, etc)
Number of enemies at xxxx radius of you.
Number of Friendlies at xxxx radius of you.
Fuel
Weight (bombs before the engagement)
Altitude of those involved.
Speed of those involved.
Type of guns, # of guns, ammo load.
Night
Day
clouds
that is just a brief scratch of the things involved.

And off the topic a bit.  I think you should also have the choice like you do for selecting a fighter or attack mission.  You should be able to select wingman, and your stats would be seperated into a seperate catagory to track you and your wingmans effiency.  With the .wingman highlight command this could also trigger the host to track that person.

This is why I never post much.  
Drex

[AKSeaWulfe]

I've got 7 and 1/2 hours online and I'm ranked 26th in the fiter category.

So, I'm failing to see where time online is a function of how highly ranked you get?
-SW

[Lephturn]

Not purely time online, but since there are "points", the sheer number of kills you have has a large influence on your score and rank.  The pure number of kills you have are largely a function of time online.

I'm pretty good right now... KD of like 5. something, 7% gunnery or so, etc.  However, I just don't have enough kills in terms of volume to rank very high.  Not complaining, just using my own stats to illustrate the point.    In terms of fighter ranks, I'm ranked about 52nd right now.  The guy 1 above me has worse stats than I do accross the board in fighters.  I have a better K/D, better K/S, better K/T, better gunnery.  All he has is more kills.

Not a whine, just an observation about how it works.  That's why folks mention that being high on the list takes a lot of time online most of all.  

------------------
Sean "Lephturn" Conrad - Aces High Chief Trainer

A proud member of the mighty Flying Pigs
http://www.flyingpigs.com

Check out Lephturn's Aerodrome for AH articles and training info!

[AKDejaVu]

Seeing as how I'm ranked 50'th and you're only 52nd, I feel the need to condescend to you you.  

AKDejaVu

[lazs]

deja.. both u and drex are proving my point.  Rank means nothing.   As you say tho... most (but not all) the pretty good sticks end up in the top 200 or so simply by doing so outstanding in on stat or another.  As drex says tho... If you want to assign "rank" or skill level to a whole compolation of stats then perhaps all the stats have to be considered very carefully so far as how to weigh them.   Otherwise.... they are best left as raw data for everyone to use in any way that THEY find useful.

deja i don't give a rat's about my rank or about my gunnery percent I don't think either mean anything.   even you admit that you have a much higher gunnery percentage in the yak than other planes.  i actually find the same thing.  Not saying I am or am not a good shot but I will have a much hitgher percentage in say a lag than a 1D.  I will even have a higher percent in the 51B... certainly I never try to conserve ammo and will spray at a con to get him to turn or pull off a friendly and I will spray ack or whatever.   I certainly think that, going by drex's rank.... gunnery is weighted all out of proportion.  

also, as drex says.. it depends on the plane you fly for other reasons.   A plane with an average K/D of 2/1 is gonna be an automatic advantage over one with a 0.5/1.   In this case "skill" is measured by being able to click on the right plane.  Hardly an admirable skill.
lazs