Author Topic: Requesting Two New Bombers  (Read 2825 times)

Offline Karnak

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Re: Requesting Two New Bombers
« Reply #15 on: February 11, 2013, 09:04:48 AM »
If the He111 is added it should be the version used in the Battle of Britain.  A later one with better guns will just be yet more mockery of that setting and still be completely helpless in the LWA.
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Offline SmokinLoon

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Re: Requesting Two New Bombers
« Reply #16 on: February 11, 2013, 11:36:09 AM »
If the He111 is added it should be the version used in the Battle of Britain.  A later one with better guns will just be yet more mockery of that setting and still be completely helpless in the LWA.

I hope HTC allows for a choice, meaning put in the H-6 but then allow for multiple gun packages to be chosen.  That way, for the scenarios the EW version can be represented at least in terms of defensive armament.  I say this in hopes the MW engines are used, the MW bomb loads are used, and yet not abandon the EW roots of the He111 in the BoB.  The MW versions offer a tad bit more speed, more ordnance options, and marginally better defensive guns.     
Proud grandson of the late Lt. Col. Darrell M. "Bud" Gray, USAF (ret.), B24D pilot, 5th BG/72nd BS. 28 combat missions within the "slot", PTO.

Offline Karnak

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Re: Requesting Two New Bombers
« Reply #17 on: February 11, 2013, 11:40:37 AM »
I hope HTC allows for a choice, meaning put in the H-6 but then allow for multiple gun packages to be chosen.  That way, for the scenarios the EW version can be represented at least in terms of defensive armament.  I say this in hopes the MW engines are used, the MW bomb loads are used, and yet not abandon the EW roots of the He111 in the BoB.  The MW versions offer a tad bit more speed, more ordnance options, and marginally better defensive guns.     
All of which does nothing to help it in MWA and LWA yet makes a mockery of BoB settings.  I'd rather they didn't waste time on the He111 if they give it mid-war engines and armor.  If they are going to do a mid-war German bomber, make it a Ju188A-1, at least that one has some fighting chances.
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Offline Krusty

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Re: Requesting Two New Bombers
« Reply #18 on: February 11, 2013, 02:29:28 PM »
There's no reason to mix EW weapons with MW/LW performance. Just add a BOB-specific variant, and since it will be 99% identical graphically add another for general MA usage.

Offline jag88

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Re: Requesting Two New Bombers
« Reply #19 on: February 16, 2013, 08:31:33 PM »
If you want a bomber for historical scenarios get a He-111, if you want one for the MA get its replacement, the He-177.
The 88 in my name has nothing to do with nazis, skinheads or any other type of half-wit, nor with the "ideas" they support.

Offline Karnak

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Re: Requesting Two New Bombers
« Reply #20 on: February 16, 2013, 08:52:39 PM »
If you want a bomber for historical scenarios get a He-111, if you want one for the MA get its replacement, the He-177.
The He177 never replaced anything.
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Offline Krusty

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Re: Requesting Two New Bombers
« Reply #21 on: February 16, 2013, 08:55:47 PM »
Quite right. It really didn't do much actual bombing, either (outside of night bombing Soviet targets in conditions as safe as possible, flying higher than any opposing fighters, avoiding conflict at all costs, and STILL losing a high number of planes to engine problems).

Offline jag88

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Re: Requesting Two New Bombers
« Reply #22 on: February 16, 2013, 09:50:28 PM »
The He177 never replaced anything.

So it wasnt intended to replace the He-111?  Rubish.

The only reason the He-111 was kept in production was due to the problems Daimler Benz, Heinkel and the Luftwaffe had with the aircraft which delayed its deployment in force, by the time the He-177 was finally ready all bomber production was cancelled so the He-177 did not replace the 111 in the porduction line, which does not mean it was not its intended replacement.
The 88 in my name has nothing to do with nazis, skinheads or any other type of half-wit, nor with the "ideas" they support.

Offline Jed

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Re: Requesting Two New Bombers
« Reply #23 on: February 16, 2013, 09:54:14 PM »
+1 need the He111    I would love to see it added.

Offline jag88

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Re: Requesting Two New Bombers
« Reply #24 on: February 16, 2013, 09:58:46 PM »
Quite right. It really didn't do much actual bombing, either (outside of night bombing Soviet targets in conditions as safe as possible, flying higher than any opposing fighters, avoiding conflict at all costs, and STILL losing a high number of planes to engine problems).

Please quote the numbers of aircraft lost to engine trouble in the eastern front that were not due to human error, in the meantime, I will mention that in 1944 several Gruppe had 80 and even 90% serviceability rates for their fleets and had eradicated the overheating problems.  

I can quote you the pages from Griehl and others, including the Gruppe that reported such readiness, can you do the same?

Just a token:

"During these operations, von Riesen's crews had little trouble from overheating engines. By now the various modifications had greatly reduced the possibility of this happening. Furthermore the root cause of so many of the fires –over-rough use of the throttles and holding high power settings for too long—was now well known: the KG I pilots had been advised of the danger and avoided it. When engine fires did occur, it was usually the result of engine mishandling by inexperienced pilots."

From Price's, pp 285.
« Last Edit: February 16, 2013, 10:08:56 PM by jag88 »
The 88 in my name has nothing to do with nazis, skinheads or any other type of half-wit, nor with the "ideas" they support.

Offline Krusty

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Re: Requesting Two New Bombers
« Reply #25 on: February 17, 2013, 12:02:29 AM »
So it wasnt intended to replace the He-111?  Rubish.

The only reason the He-111 was kept in production was due to the problems Daimler Benz, Heinkel and the Luftwaffe had with the aircraft which delayed its deployment in force, by the time the He-177 was finally ready all bomber production was cancelled so the He-177 did not replace the 111 in the porduction line, which does not mean it was not its intended replacement.

Bullpoop. The He177 was designed in 1936 and mocked up in 1937 originally for the "Bomber A" requirement. In Nov 1937 it was given its RLM type number 8-177. Prototypes flew in 1939, when the Do17 was being replaced by the He-111.

You want to know what was to replace the He-111, though not explicitly designed to? The Ju-88. And it did, for the most part. The Ju-188, 288, and 388, were being pursued as the primary successors to all Luftwaffe bombing (with minor exceptions in the jet family, grossly mismanaged by Hitler).

The He177 wasn't designed or intended to "replace" anything.

However, in mid 1944, even at the end, the loss rates due to engine problems were still quite present.

Quick wiki copy, but you can find it in several books as well:

"As the war progressed, He 177 operations became increasingly desultory. Fuel and personnel shortages presented difficulties, and He 177s were sitting on airfields all over Europe awaiting new engines or engine related modifications. During Operation Steinbock, of the 14 He 177 sent out, one suffered a burst tire, 8 returned with overheating or burning engines and of the 4 that reached London one was lost to night fighters. These aircraft were brand new [...]"

That's only 13, though. What wiki doesn't say is another turned back before it even left French airspace, due to mechanical difficulties!

8 out of 14? That's over 50% engine loss rates in one mission alone! In Jan-May 1944! With the "fixed" problems! Those are "new" craft in 1944, that means A-5s. Just because they weren't bursting into flames ALL the time doesn't mean they weren't bursting into piles of scrap metal. They had a very complicated gearbox mechanism and designs like this (side by side engines) on any side during the war had a high failure rate.

Gixxer comments he has both the J Richard Smith & Eddit J Creeks book and the Manfred Griehl & Joachim Dressel book and both seem to agree that even after the "cure" was established with the A-5, they both talk about fires continuing to plague the aircraft. A different reference to Griehl/Dressel says: "In the Griehl/Dressel book on the He177 for the period March to August 1944 there are some 36 177 losses for KG 1 most down to technical reasons."

Even KG1's efforts against Soviet targets from German airfields yielded well above normal rates of engine failures late in the war, with A-3s and A-5s.

Quick google search for He177 Order of Battle:

"LW OoB May 31 1944 - He 177A

Stab/KG 1 2/1 (on hand/servicable)
I/KG 1 30/11
II/KG 1 29/0
III/KG 1 30/12

II/KG 100 30/0

part I/KG 40 30(20)/21(11)
II/KG 40 30/26

3./KG 40 10/10

That is 181 'on hand' but ONLY 71 'sevicable' > 39%. A good indication that all was not well with the He177."

Even when "fixed" it was still a terrible plane.

Folks see this plane on paper and want it because of the "potentially" high bomb loads. It's misleading. It never flew with the max loads unless you count it carrying 2 or 4 guided glider bombs or missiles, each of which could weigh 2000+ pounds. These were also exclusively anti-shipping. When actual bombs were carried, most flew with 4000kg or less.



Otherwise they wouldn't have the operational range to reach London (during the black of night) and come back. In the East, they wouldn't use more than 1000kg, because they had to fly at extreme ranges into Soviet territory and back. They flew so high no VVS fighters were there to stop them. Sometimes they set up racetracks and orbited over targets for hours and bombed in waves. That takes a LOT of fuel, which means they were carrying very FEW bombs. In short, people want it added to this game out of reasons of ignorance. They want a "German B17" (quoted because that kind of term is used in most of the requests for the He-177).

Offline icepac

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Re: Requesting Two New Bombers
« Reply #26 on: February 17, 2013, 08:14:55 AM »
Seems to me that the HE177 performed more missions than a few planes already in game.

Offline SmokinLoon

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Re: Requesting Two New Bombers
« Reply #27 on: February 17, 2013, 09:34:12 AM »

...

Folks see this plane on paper and want it because of the "potentially" high bomb loads. It's misleading. It never flew with the max loads unless you count it carrying 2 or 4 guided glider bombs or missiles, each of which could weigh 2000+ pounds. These were also exclusively anti-shipping. When actual bombs were carried, most flew with 4000kg or less.

Otherwise they wouldn't have the operational range to reach London (during the black of night) and come back. In the East, they wouldn't use more than 1000kg, because they had to fly at extreme ranges into Soviet territory and back. They flew so high no VVS fighters were there to stop them. Sometimes they set up racetracks and orbited over targets for hours and bombed in waves. That takes a LOT of fuel, which means they were carrying very FEW bombs. In short, people want it added to this game out of reasons of ignorance. They want a "German B17" (quoted because that kind of term is used in most of the requests for the He-177).


I'm not vouching to have the He111 in AH for any reasons of ignorance or "potentially" high bomb loads. I've always maintained that the He111 would be used similarly to the B25C and B26 currently in AH because of close similarities of bomb load (4000kg/4400 lbs "standard" max load), speed (260-275 mph), and range (more range than B26, less than B25).  And to its credit it would have a better chance defensively than the B25C thanks to gun coverage in the ventral position. Evidently, as the variants progressed and developed, the "best" variant of the He111 allowed for 8/250kg bombs to be carried internally.  I can't find any concrete evidence that any ordnance was carried externally if the 8/250 kg were carried internally though, at least not as a standard practice.   I do not have a printed source detailing how or where the smaller bombs were mounted and how many were able to be carried, at least in detail.

Obviously, it would be instantly felt in scenarios.  Without question, I argue that it is the biggest hole in the AH German plane set, AND that it is not going to be any more of a hanger queen in the MA's than the B25, Ju88, G4M, or Ki-67.  It may even find a niche as a German version of the A20.  No, it is not going to deliver the same results as a heavy bomber, but so what.         

I'm having issues with people who think this bomber should be excluded "out of ignorance".     
Proud grandson of the late Lt. Col. Darrell M. "Bud" Gray, USAF (ret.), B24D pilot, 5th BG/72nd BS. 28 combat missions within the "slot", PTO.

Offline Karnak

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Re: Requesting Two New Bombers
« Reply #28 on: February 17, 2013, 09:52:37 AM »
SmokinLoon,

Krusty isn't talking about the He111, One One One.  He is talking about the He177, One Seven Seven.
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Offline Wmaker

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Re: Requesting Two New Bombers
« Reply #29 on: February 17, 2013, 09:57:06 AM »
Wmaker
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