He177 ?

[GScholz]

That's some serious armor on that tail gunner position!


Let my final words in this thread be that Karnak is no troll. He's just opinionated and stubborn... many of us fall in that category.

[Franz Von Werra]

Have to try! Post any good links you find for the flight properties, characteristics, and graphics!

Resources and stuff:

This link has bunches of diagrams for how the cockpit goes. (posted this earlier)
http://www.cockpitinstrumente.de/Flugzeuge/Bomber/He%20177/cockpit/He%20177%20cockpit.html


Some characteristics of the plane:
http://www.aviastar.org/gallery/234.html
Last few paragraphs are these:
(also shows a drop-tank that is towed, has wings and landing gear on it!)

THE HEINKEL He 177 A-5 DESCRIBED

The fuselage was of stressed-skin construction, with Z-shaped stringers and formers. The nose was detachable, and had a small spherical mounting for the 7.9mm MG 81 machine-gun operated by the bomb-aimer. The nose section housed the pilot, bomb-aimer/2nd pilot/front gunner, the navigator/wireless operator/under gunner and the gunner operating the remotely-controlled dorsal guns. The central control column could be swung to the left or the right, for use by either the pilot or the second pilot. If he wished, the second pilot could collapse his seat, to enable him to use the bombsight. Beneath the navigator's seat was a toilet.

The forward section of the fuselage housed two
This He 177 of K.G.40 was captured at Toulouse by men of the French Resistance; it is pictured here shortly after its arrival at Farnborough in September 1944, still wearing French markings
fuel tanks. Beneath these was the forward bomb bay, beneath which could be fitted an external carrier for an Hs293 glider-bomb. The rear section of the fuselage housed two fuel tanks, with the second bomb bay underneath. Behind these tanks were two large carbon-dioxide cylinders which fed the engine nacelle fire extinguishers. Two large-bore jettisoning pipes led back from the fuselage fuel tanks and terminated under the elevators. When operated from the pilot's position, a cable would release the covers and uncoil a length of rubber hose on each side; the fuel could then drain out of these pipes under gravity.

The wing, which was of single-spar stressed-skin construction, comprised a centre-section and two main planes. The wingtips were detachable. Each mainplane housed an outboard landing wheel; there was a balloon cable-cutter in each leading-edge. Fowler-type flaps ran along the whole of the trailing-edge, from aileron to wing root. There were two oil radiators in each leading-edge, cooled by ram air from a duct; the supply could be regulated by hydraulically-operated flaps. The faired carriers for glider-bombs or heavy bombs were attached just outboard of the oil radiators. There was one fuel tank in each mainplane, and one on each side of the centre-section.

Each engine nacelle provided an attachment point for two single-wheel oleo legs; the outboard legs retracted outwards, the inboard ones inwards. When the main wheels were down, the undercarriage flaps closed again to seal-off the wheel housings. Like the main undercarriage legs, the tail wheel was retracted hydraulically. The time to retract the undercarriage was between 20-30 seconds - an inordinately long period.

Two Daimler Benz DB 610 "double engines" powered the He 177 A-5. Each of these comprised a pair of DB 605 units mounted side-by-side, connected by a common shaft to a four-blade, fully feathering V.D.M. metal propeller of 4.5m diameter. The propeller was fitted with metal cuffs at the blade roots, to assist engine cooling. The propellers rotated in opposite directions; the port ran anti-clockwise and the starboard ran clockwise, as seen from the front.

The He 177 carried extensive armour protection for its crew. The pilot's seat was of armour plate, 9mm thick at the back and 6mm beneath. The "chin" gun position had 7mm and 6-mm armour and bullet-proof glass; the rear ventral gun position had 9mm armour plate. A slab of 10mm thick armour plating, with a slot for the Revi gunsight, protected the gunner in the remote sighting position. In addition to all this, sections of armour plating were fitted to the fuselage around the forward crew position. The mid-upper rear gunner's position was protected from the rear by 7mm armour, which also protected the dinghy compartment; to the rear of this compartment was a large semi-circular section of armour, which extended down the top two-thirds of the fuselage. The tail gunner was protected by an 18mm thick armoured gun mounting, a bullet-proof glass screen, and 9mm armour underneath the gun. By adjusting his seat, he could either sit or lie prone, but when in the more comfortable sitting position his field of fire was limited.

[icepac]

PE8?

[Grendel]

Futhermore... Lancs were night bombing since the Battle for Britain! (from wikipedia)
The first RAF raid on Berlin took place on the night of 25 August 1940; 95 aircraft were dispatched to bomb Tempelhof Airport near the centre of Berlin and Siemensstadt, of which 81 dropped their bombs in and around Berlin,[8][9] and while the damage was slight, the psychological effect on Hitler was greater.
SLIGHT DAMAGE! Lanc at night couldnt hit anything but a city if that! (lights out)

I fail to see what for example that quote above has to do with either Lancasters or Heinkel 177s, since there was not a single Lancaster in existence by that time.

The force bombing Berlin included..
Vickers Wellington Mk Is of No. 99, No. 149 Squadron ,
Handley Page Hampdens Mk Is of No. 61, No. 144 Squadrons
Armstrong Whitworth Whitley Mk Vs of No. 51 Squadron, 78 Squadron, 51 Sqn., 58 Sqn., 78 Sqn.

And number of Lancasters: 0. B-24s: 0. B-17s: 0. Ki-67s: 0. etc.
Now was there any Heinkel 177s bombing Berlin in 1940.

But to comment on the bombing accuracy of Lancaster: by 1944/1945 the night bombers were able to hit their targets at night more accurately than B17s/B24s by daylight. It took time to learn the proper tactics for the job. And indeed RAF did.

g

[jag88]

If info is what you want...

[Franz Von Werra]

Guys, if possible, translate this stuff, the idea is to help and make less work for the HTC staff to add the plane... looks like awesome info!

[Tank-Ace]

Guys, if possible, translate this stuff, the idea is to help and make less work for the HTC staff to add the plane... looks like awesome info!

Why? Its literally just about the last thing we need. The Golly-geen Boulton Paul Defiant is about as high on the priority list.

[tunnelrat]

That's some serious armor on that tail gunner position!


Let my final words in this thread be that Karnak is no troll. He's just opinionated and stubborn... many of us fall in that category.

+1 to this... Karnak may be obnoxious, but he's a cool cat at the same time.

[jag88]

+1 to this... Karnak may be obnoxious, but he's a cool cat at the same time.

Well put, I agree.

[jag88]

Why? Its literally just about the last thing we need. The Golly-geen Boulton Paul Defiant is about as high on the priority list.

You are right, the game is full of true heavy bombers that can carry more than 4t of bombs, how silly of us to ask for a... second one?  Or for a viable German bomber for that matter?

Yeah... we are asking too much... still waiting on those sources btw...

[Tank-Ace]

You are right, the game is full of true heavy bombers that can carry more than 4t of bombs, how silly of us to ask for a... second one?  Or for a viable German bomber for that matter?

Yeah... we are asking too much... still waiting on those sources btw...

Yes,  because a Do 217 packing 6600lbs at 340mph is in no way viable or useful.

We obviously need a German B-26 with roughly 1.5 times the defensive firepower that can be configured to carry Lancaster - sized loads at medium speds,  or B-24 loads at high speeds.

Oh, and in point of fact,  we currently have 3 heavy bombers. And both Ju 188 and Do 217 could carry more ordnance than the B-17.

[Franz Von Werra]

I took luftwaffe bombers for a spin:

Ju-88: (formation) Much fun, lil slow, still fun! I shot down a same guy in fighters twice. Bombed up the enemy strats too. Very successful flight.
Findings: As with any bomber, dont attack from behind. For this bomber, any attack from the sides bottom or top, would seem indefensible. He attacked from the only '15 degree? arc' area that I could fire all three guns at him, twice!
His shame; his very bad! My luck!
I would request making the front gun able to function as front firing fixed gun as it is now, but also 'manable' with pivot ability.

Ar-234: Very neat, very fun, very fast! I wound up at 18k trying to slow down. I was unable to slow down enough in time, and unable to stablize speed enough for a good calibration. It transfered to a large range on the ground, ,my 3 x 500 kg's bombs... I'm lucky I hit anything at all. I need to learn this thing.
Findings: Best survivability plane in game probably. Great for avoiding fights. Problem: the fight is half the fun!

He-177 is a BIG bomber, lots of medium and large guns to defend itself from any direction. Four engines and mass for survivability. Lots of bombs to smash stuff too!

It is also a PRIDE thing, this is the Great German Luftwaffe's 'Flagship' that has teeth, it can fight, and has mass to exchange damage! And we Luftwobbles, Luftwaffles and Luftwhiners want it, when not in a fighter, this is the game's best fun for us!
Jageschwader's want a 'toe to toe ruff n tuff' Bombgeschwader too! Give allieds the nightmares that b24's give us luftwaffes!

Adding a Do-217 before a Do-17 doesn't make much sense to me. Now that we have the Ju-88, He-111, we kinda need the Do-17 also for the complete historic set... but for PRIDE and FUN we need the He-177!!!

Luftwaffe's everywhere, post "add please" and salute!
Add please! 
Also, if find a good info link, post it!

[jag88]

Yes,  because a Do 217 packing 6600lbs at 340mph is in no way viable or useful.

We obviously need a German B-26 with roughly 1.5 times the defensive firepower that can be configured to carry Lancaster - sized loads at medium speds,  or B-24 loads at high speeds.

Oh, and in point of fact,  we currently have 3 heavy bombers. And both Ju 188 and Do 217 could carry more ordnance than the B-17.

340mph?  Lovely numbers, found a source yet or are you still making up numbers?  Btw, have fun fending off fighters with mostly light MGs and a couple mediums, a He-177 would have a far better chance to survive and a greater effect. And since you didnt get it, the viable comment was regarding the Ju-88 which is the bomber currently in game.

You mean, carry Lancaster loads at Lancaster speeds and B-24 loads at slightly faster than B-24 speeds?  Because that is what it could do, and I did provide sources for my numbers while you still dont...

True heavy bombers, true, 4t loads and up and not bombers that can barely carry a medium bomber load or slightly higher, or that carry more crew than bombs.  Btw the Ju-188 carries exactly the same bombload as a Ju-88, 3t, thats it, and in the same fashion, mostly external thus hurting its performance.

[Karnak]

I took luftwaffe bombers for a spin:

Ju-88: (formation) Much fun, lil slow, still fun! I shot down a same guy in fighters twice. Bombed up the enemy strats too. Very successful flight.
Findings: As with any bomber, dont attack from behind. For this bomber, any attack from the sides bottom or top, would seem indefensible. He attacked from the only '15 degree? arc' area that I could fire all three guns at him, twice!
His shame; his very bad! My luck!

My best in the Ju88 happened in AH1 before there were formations.  I bagged a P-51D, Fw190, F4U-1C and an N1K2-J, though the N1K2-J also finished me off.

I would request making the front gun able to function as front firing fixed gun as it is now, but also 'manable' with pivot ability.

I don't think it had that capability.

Ar-234: Very neat, very fun, very fast! I wound up at 18k trying to slow down. I was unable to slow down enough in time, and unable to stablize speed enough for a good calibration. It transfered to a large range on the ground, ,my 3 x 500 kg's bombs... I'm lucky I hit anything at all. I need to learn this thing.

It takes a long distance for the fast bombers, Ar234B, B-29 and Mosquito Mk XVI to settle down so your attack has to be planned with that in mind.  Generally I give at least a two, and preferably more, sector run once reaching the altitude I plan to bomb from before I am over the target.

Findings: Best survivability plane in game probably. Great for avoiding fights. Problem: the fight is half the fun!

The Ar234B and Mosquito Mk XVI offer a different kind of fun than the fight.  With those two you play cat and mouse with the enemy, but both of them also have the ability to go almost anywhere regardless of what the enemy does.

[Tank-Ace]

340mph?  Lovely numbers, found a source yet or are you still making up numbers?  Btw, have fun fending off fighters with mostly light MGs and a couple mediums, a He-177 would have a far better chance to survive and a greater effect. And since you didnt get it, the viable comment was regarding the Ju-88 which is the bomber currently in game.

You mean, carry Lancaster loads at Lancaster speeds and B-24 loads at slightly faster than B-24 speeds?  Because that is what it could do, and I did provide sources for my numbers while you still dont...

True heavy bombers, true, 4t loads and up and not bombers that can barely carry a medium bomber load or slightly higher, or that carry more crew than bombs.  Btw the Ju-188 carries exactly the same bombload as a Ju-88, 3t, thats it, and in the same fashion, mostly external thus hurting its performance.

I mean lanc loads at medium speeds, or B-24 loads at high speed. I've put 6 years into the game,  the first two as a bomber junkie. Basically,  I know what I'm talking about. 300mph+ is high speeds for a bomber at anything but very high altitude. 340 is damn near untouchable, rendering any lack of defense a negligible weakness,  unless you are flying it.

I can assume from your idiotic rants about speed being unimportant and firepower being paramount, you are neither smart or a good shot.

Who says heavies have to carry 4t+? Following that, the B-17 is a medium. Who cares if it has 2 engines if it carries 8.8k of ord, and is just as survivable? I certainly don't.

The fact is that the Do 217 is the best choice right now,  followed by a 188. The He 177 would be unrepresentative, useless in scenarios, and dominant in the MAs. You quite clearly just want it because you want a German B-24 that can turn into a lanc and keep the firepower.

http://www.airpages.ru/eng/lw/do217.shtml

http://www.wwiivehicles.com/germany/aircraft/bomber/dornier-do-217.asp

My go-to source for GVs, and very accurate data regarding vehicles. Have seen nothing to indicate factual errors.

http://ww2db.com/aircraft_spec.php?aircraft_model_id=23

I had some book sources too, but they're likely still in some box from our move. If you insist on being dumb,  I'll go figure them out when I find the time.