He177 ?

[Lusche]

Schlowy?

[Franz Von Werra]

I've heard of him! Schlowly, good pilot!

[Karnak]

Schlowy?

That had been my guess as well.

The habit of ignoring anything positive about anything not German and anything negative about anything German is the same.

[Franz Von Werra]

Did he have issues with you too?
You seem to not post any sources... I can understand why if he didnt like you either!

[Karnak]

Did he have issues with you too?
You seem to not post any sources... I can understand why if he didnt like you either!

I don't have He177 sources, to be honest.  If you want to get sources we'll need to talk about Spitfires, Fw190s or Mosquitos mostly.  My Mosquito sources include some data for Lancasters and such as well.  You don't like the answers though, as they conflict with your preconceived opinions that Lancasters couldn't hit anything smaller than a city.

You also don't look at operational realities when you make your comparisons, so you end up comparing apples to elephants and being smug about it as though you made a point.

[Megalodon]

I don't have He177 sources, to be honest.

 

 That's Rich,

[Karnak]

 

 That's Rich,

Lots of data has been posted here over the years and I have a pretty good memory.

The problem with you guys is your agenda forces you to cherry pick the data you like.  Per jag88 and Franz von Werra the He177 was fully operational and a perfect airplane by 1944.  Yet, somehow, it had a greater than 50% abort rate for technical issues during the mini-blitz of 1944 per Lusche.

Lusche has demonstrated himself to be about as unbiased as anybody on these forums and I'll take his word for something way before I trust that you guys aren't cherry picking and trying to paint a falsely positive image.

[jag88]

Lots of data has been posted here over the years and I have a pretty good memory.

The problem with you guys is your agenda forces you to cherry pick the data you like.  Per jag88 and Franz von Werra the He177 was fully operational and a perfect airplane by 1944.  Yet, somehow, it had a greater than 50% abort rate for technical issues during the mini-blitz of 1944 per Lusche.

Lusche has demonstrated himself to be about as unbiased as anybody on these forums and I'll take his word for something way before I trust that you guys aren't cherry picking and trying to paint a falsely positive image.

Some good memory...

I literally just said that the He-177 had issues with its engines to the end and required management, I NEVER said it was perfect!  WE, you and me, just discussed how AH could tackle and model those issues into the game ffs!

Do yourself a favor, NEVER EVER AGAIN CLAIM YOU HAVE A GOOD MEMORY, you clearly dont and such statements just make your arguments seem even more empty.

Btw, thank you for your honesty in accepting that you were opposing the aircraft out of ignorance, I hope you remember that next time.  



Oh, wait...



And just so you know, given the circumstances, that 50% is the cherry-picked data, but what would you know, you have no knowledge on the matter.

[jag88]

Abysmal.

Just like the accurracy of any other bomber in those raids, mostly due to very low training levels of mostly green aircrews.

But while the number of aborted missions was very high for all types (first two raids: 101 planes out of 732), the abort rate due to technical problems was extremely high for the He 177, at about 50%.

Given that some of them had 15 hour training on the type, barely any ground support and untested aircraft, it is not surprising that they were an asset of dubious value in those early missions.

[Karnak]

Franz said it was bug free (aka, perfect).  It was a general statement.  You've merely painted it, in the A-3 and A-5 versions, as fully ready for prime time operations.

[jag88]

Franz said it was bug free (aka, perfect).  It was a general statement.  You've merely painted it, in the A-3 and A-5 versions, as fully ready for prime time operations.

You included my name pal, you are trying to discredit what I have said and the info I have posted by trying to put me in the same bag as the troll.  Right now I believe your memory is not the problem, you are now being straight dishonest by not disavowing your prior statement.

I have stated differences between the 3s and 5s, your memory is as bad as your agenda is clear.  Only the A5 was truly capable of regular operations thanks to the displacement of the engines and other changes that made the aircraft more reliable.  But what do you care, you do not know anything about the Greaif and what is even worse, you dont want to know anything.

You and Franz deserve each other.

[Karnak]

jag88,

You are not misrepresenting the state of the He177A-5 to the extent that Franz is, but you are misrepresenting it.

Lets put it this way, during the Battle of Britain the RAF was forced to put pilots with only 10 hours into Spitfires and Hurricanes and they did not begin to approach a 50% abort rate due to mechanical problems.  Likewise, the Luftwaffe put such pilots into late war Bf109s and Fw190s and, while I don't have the numbers, I'd be shocked if they were anything like 50%.  You can't hand wave that abort rate during the mini-blitz by saying it was all due to green crews.  If the machine is that dependent on experienced crew then it isn't ready for general deployment and use.

[MK-84]

What about the argument that I would be a lot of fun to fly here?

[jag88]

jag88,

You are not misrepresenting the state of the He177A-5 to the extent that Franz is, but you are misrepresenting it.

Lets put it this way, during the Battle of Britain the RAF was forced to put pilots with only 10 hours into Spitfires and Hurricanes and they did not begin to approach a 50% abort rate due to mechanical problems.  Likewise, the Luftwaffe put such pilots into late war Bf109s and Fw190s and, while I don't have the numbers, I'd be shocked if they were anything like 50%.  You can't hand wave that abort rate during the mini-blitz by saying it was all due to green crews.  If the machine is that dependent on experienced crew then it isn't ready for general deployment and use.

Ok, clearly now you are just trolling.

That abort rate was during ONE mission in January 1944, you are trying to extrapolate that... forget it, I am trying to have a reasonable discussion with someone that has already confessed to having no idea about the issue at hand, whose only source is his memory, one that has just been proven to be so unreliable to be a bad joke, and who has proven to be impermeable to primary source data, quotes from reliable and specialized sources and to common sense even.

Go talk to Franz, you both have the same level on understanding of the aircraft and the same attitude towards a healthy discussion, you just happen to be on different sides of the discussion.  Thats all.

[Karnak]

What then, was the abort rate?  All I have to go on was Lusche's numbers.  If they are wrong, provide broader numbers.

The problem with the He177 is that every time specific numbers come up they are dreadful.  I am open to the idea that they weren't that bad, but provide some examples of later abort rates.