WG21 rockets........nerfed from realism for gameplay?

[icepac]

I've been looking at the damage charts and noticed that the WG21 is assigned "200 of HE" damage while the RS82 is assigned "83 of HE" damage.

The WG21 has a 90 pound HE charge.

The RS82 has a .8 pound HE charge.

Maybe the data I am reading for these rockets is all wrong?

I've also noticed the WG21 explodes at d1050 while most action reports reference much longer range settings as used in actual combat.

Was there a day of infamy where WG21 laden planes ran amok unbalancing the arena which required dialing them back?

[SmokinLoon]

I've been looking at the damage charts and noticed that the WG21 is assigned "200 of HE" damage while the RS82 is assigned "83 of HE" damage.

The WG21 has a 90 pound HE charge.

The RS82 has a .8 pound HE charge.

I've also noticed the WG21 explodes at d1050 while most action reports reference much longer range settings as used in actual combat.

Was there a day of infamy where WG21 laden planes ran amok unbalancing the arena which required dialing them back?

First, remember that damage done to OBJ and damage done to aircraft and gv's are 2 different monsters. No, you didn't specifically ask about that but I'm mentioning it just to make sure everyone is on the same page.

Second, it is all based on the scale of "# of X to destroy an 312 lb OBJ".  While I've not seen HTC specifically express this as a base scale, I believe it to be plausible.  Where we see a difference is on the "heavier" hardness settings such as hangers, shore batteries, HQ, naval guns, etc.  As HTC has it set up, it will either take 2,3,or 4 rockets to destroy an 312 lb OBJ.  Same goes for tank HE rounds ('cept the M8, it takes 11 HE rounds to bring down a typical OBJ).  

Thirdly, a better scale to compare the rockets used to target ground effects is the German 28cm "Wurfkorper".  This is the biggest kid on the block in AH in terms of rockets used against ground targets.  It was loaded with roughly 110 lb of TNT and had rough range of 2400 yards, iirc.  HTC has given it a damage value of 285 lbs.  In contrast, the smallest of the true HE ground-pounder rockets in AH is the Soviet RS-82, and it has less than 1 lb of explosives, and HTC has given it 92 lbs of damage.

While I agree that HTC's scale of damage does not accurately represent the scale of differences in the real rockets, they need to apply a scale somehow and that is the route they've taken.

I think it is obvious that based on how much the 28cm rockets are used: the SdKfz 251 armed with the 28cm rockets is not worth taking to an enemy town thanks to a couple of things: the lack of being able to manually aim the launcher (sources say a minimum of °5 to a max of °45), and the inability to destroy buildings with 1 shot.  In the real deal, the German 28cm rockets were known to demolish buildings with great ease, the battle of Leningrad showed that and there is plenty of testimony.  Also, the M4/75mm Calliope offers a much better chance of survivability.        

In the case of the RS-82, the I-16 is the custodian of 6 of them, otherwise the IL-2 can carry 4 of them.  Not much in terms of platform offerings, really.  I think it is rather obvious that the US 5in HVAR's rule the roost in terms of air to ground rockets thanks to the P51D, F6F, F4U-D, P47D-40, and P38L.  The British Typhoon and Mossi can carry 8 of the 3in rockets for a whopping 1496 lbs of damage, but the rails scare most of the plane performance micro-managers away (same guys who fire their 110 rear guns empty, or the 4/30 cals in the Mossi empty, etc, to "save weight so they can turn tighter"   ).  

In terms of the range of the WGr21's, I'm not much help there.  Once upon a time I used them in a 110 just to see if I could get good with them but my success ratio was far lower than just using the guns.  This I do know: HTC has the timer or range set to go off at roughly 1200 yards. It is very difficult to gauge that range because we dont have a 1200 yard icon.  The ebst way to test this is to get a squady in to the TA and have the friendly icons show you actual ranges, have the squady report back impacts and also watch the film.    

[icepac]

I tested range sitting on a runway using the target command until I had moved it out to match the explosion in F5 mode and then confirmed by using the film viewer.

What we have is a "stand off" weapon but with the "stand off" functionality of the design removed.

[thrila]

AFAIK the WG21 has always been like this in AH.  The upward angle on the tubes may affect your results if you are firing them on the runway.  Wiki states the range of the rockets were set to explode between 700 to 1300 yards, what ranges do you have in mind for them? I think you may be barking up the wrong tree.

[icepac]

Historic ranges as written in action reports.

[Ack-Ack]

I seem to recall that the WG21 rocket damage was adjusted because when we first got them in game, they were being used as A2G rockets instead of A2A rockets.

ack-ack

[SmokinLoon]

I seem to recall that the WG21 rocket damage was adjusted because when we first got them in game, they were being used as A2G rockets instead of A2A rockets.

ack-ack

That was before my time, I do believe.  I know that in the later stages of the war the Germans in desperation did use the WGr21 rockets as an "area effect" weapon with lackluster results.  I'm not a chemistry expert or ordnance guru, but something tells me the effect on anything harder than an aircraft would have been minimal, remember this thing was designed to air burst near a bomber (or three) and spray many small fragments of shrapnel hence the need for the large explosive load.  When used on ground targets the lack of stout shrapnel from the casing meant that anything reinforced or armored would probably shrug it off.  Many people forget that bit.  The size of the TNT is one thing, the ability for the casing to produce sizable shrapnel is another.  Case in point is the US's dilemma of switching to the 76mm from the 75mm.  The new 76mm ammo simply could not produce a good HE round, in fact it was dismal in comparison to the 75mm it was trying to fully replace.  It all had to do with the casing and the need for the higher pressure/higher velocity round being too thick so the TNT charge was too little, in short the "TNT to casing" formula did not favor an HE projectile. 

I don't think the WGr21's have been "nerfed", I think they are just fine.  YMMV

[Ack-Ack]

That was before my time, I do believe.  I know that in the later stages of the war the Germans in desperation did use the WGr21 rockets as an "area effect" weapon with lackluster results.  I'm not a chemistry expert or ordnance guru, but something tells me the effect on anything harder than an aircraft would have been minimal, remember this thing was designed to air burst near a bomber (or three) and spray many small fragments of shrapnel hence the need for the large explosive load.  When used on ground targets the lack of stout shrapnel from the casing meant that anything reinforced or armored would probably shrug it off.  Many people forget that bit.  The size of the TNT is one thing, the ability for the casing to produce sizable shrapnel is another.  Case in point is the US's dilemma of switching to the 76mm from the 75mm.  The new 76mm ammo simply could not produce a good HE round, in fact it was dismal in comparison to the 75mm it was trying to fully replace.  It all had to do with the casing and the need for the higher pressure/higher velocity round being too thick so the TNT charge was too little, in short the "TNT to casing" formula did not favor an HE projectile. 

I don't think the WGr21's have been "nerfed", I think they are just fine.  YMMV

Not sure what was adjusted, maybe the adjustment was to make them only go off after they've traveled a certain distance instead of being contact fused.  Whatever the change was, it stopped the WGr21s from being used as A2G rockets in game.

ack-ack

[BaldEagl]

I think it is obvious that based on how much the 28cm rockets are used: the SdKfz 251 armed with the 28cm rockets is not worth taking to an enemy town thanks to a couple of things: the lack of being able to manually aim the launcher (sources say a minimum of °5 to a max of °45), and the inability to destroy buildings with 1 shot.  In the real deal, the German 28cm rockets were known to demolish buildings with great ease, the battle of Leningrad showed that and there is plenty of testimony.  Also, the M4/75mm Calliope offers a much better chance of survivability.

While I haven't driven it since the days when I cared about my rank (the old towns and zone strat system) it is a formidable town killer.  The problem is if you're moving forward you have to be at very close range.  The advantage is if you carry supplies you can keep resupplying and resupplying them.  I used to be able to completely flatten a town or strat with the Sdk in very short order.

[icepac]

The entire rocket set has been continually adjusted to arrive at what we have now, I guess.

The balance does favor smaller rockets when you compare them relative to each other and the real life counterparts.

[Krusty]

The WGr was adjusted so that the motor burned faster, harder, to impart the same momentum and then die out, per more accurate historical references available at the time of change.

They still took the same time to get to target, still had the same drop, and still did the same damage. It just changed the timing of the motor and the kick of said motor. All other parameters were still met.

icepac: The answer is the "200lb" number means nothing. Ground objects aren't modeled like airplanes are. They don't have the same damage model. .50cal damage as compared to even the smallest cannon damage shows that ground objects react to blast damage better than impact damage.

So just ignore that list. It's for folks that game the game and use the rockets for towns. Not totally unheard of (110s did this, if I recall correctly), but the number means nothing in regards to its air to air lethality.

You'll also want to test them in level flight, not sitting on the runway.

[icepac]

My suggestion is to remove the contact fuse means it only detonates with the timed fuse.

It won't work on ground targets this way way unless you are so skilled you can time the fuse to explode the rocket 50 feet over the object you want to hit.

This is a very powerful "stand off" weapon, a weapon that is supposed to be lobbed into buff formations from distances in excess of the defensive guns.

What we have is a weapon that we cannot use in historic context........yet we have weapons on the most popular planes that overperform thier real life counterparts.

[SmokinLoon]

My suggestion is to remove the contact fuse means it only detonates with the timed fuse.

It won't work on ground targets this way way unless you are so skilled you can time the fuse to explode the rocket 50 feet over the object you want to hit.

This is a very powerful "stand off" weapon, a weapon that is supposed to be lobbed into buff formations from distances in excess of the defensive guns.

What we have is a weapon that we cannot use in historic context........yet we have weapons on the most popular planes that overperform thier real life counterparts.

I understand the suggestion, but it would not be %100 historically correct.  The WGr21's were used in a direct fire role against ground targets late in the war, though I'm not sure how the fuse type was adjusted for impact vs timed.

For the record, I would not shed a tear if HTC removed the impact capability with these rockets.  Their use vs ground targets were not what they were meant to be used for and it certainly was not a standard practice.  With that in mind they are difficult to aim even at ground targets thanks to the tube being mounted at an angle.  Also, with at the most 4 of them being mounted on an 110 (and 410 too?), I'm not worried that they are being used and abused in the ground attack role, unlike the P51D's pair of 1k bombs and 6/5in rockets (I'm not convinced that the P51D carried both in WWII).  The drag alone is enough for me to leave them in the hanger unless I'm going on a long term bomber hunter mission and even then I have to seriously contemplate their worth.          

check this thread out: http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,302726.15.html