Author Topic: F-35 Fighters Are Grounded  (Read 6598 times)

Offline nrshida

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Re: F-35 Fighters Are Grounded
« Reply #135 on: February 26, 2013, 09:56:34 PM »
The F-35A has better instantaneous and sustained turn rates than an F-16 carrying a war load. A clean F-16 in "air show mode" has a maximum sustained turn rate of 18 degrees per second. The F-35A carrying an A2A war load and full fuel has a sustained turn rate of 17 degrees per second. The F-35 has better acceleration and top speed than the F-16 carrying a war load, and that's with the F-35 carrying 3.5 times more internal fuel than the F-16. The F-16 is actually structurally limited to 4G's if carrying external fuel or bombs.

And this is significantly better then its 35 year old cousin? How does it compare to some of the newer fighters, since you are bigging up its dogfighting prowess? Naturally you'll then flip to the helmet solution and BVR stealth argument. Also you keep talking about the fuel load which of course must be internal if you want to retain the stealth but how does fuel consumption compare? I think you are as adept at fiddling data as some of the lobbyists.


It has self sealing fuel tanks and an inerting system. If you don't know what that is, google it. Your Zero-analogy is completely ridiculous.

Is it? It has one of the six dry bay fire-suppression systems it did have, the rest removed to cut costs and save weight because they admitted it wouldn't make any difference anyway. You really see this aircraft loitering around a firefight at low level supporting troops as a direct replacement for an A-10?


The whole point of developing that fancy helmet is to guide those dogfight missiles.

BVR missile reliability is another issue where he is clearly delusional, and clearly still in Vietnam-mode. Since the late-'80s more than half the recorded U.S. A2A victories have been made with AIM-7 or AIM-120 BVR missiles. Since it entered service in 1992, 13 AMRAAMs have been fired in anger resulting in the destruction of 9 aircraft.

Okay, let's play devil's advocate on this issue, if the missiles and BVR engagements are so effective and versatile now, why did they bother making a fighter design at all? Why did they fit a gun? Why not make a dedicated bomb truck, sleek and fast with tiny wings / partially lifting body, better all aspect stealth and a really capacious internal weapons bay which could whizz about in straight lines through the warzone plopping out missiles wherever the pilot could point his helmet?

If this point and click to kill fantasy is feasible why are other nations still developing manoeuvrable aircraft? Are they just more stupid or less knowledgeable then?


It is spanking everything, or rather it will be. All except the F-22 of course.

You really are the perfect consumer  :rofl



Mace2004, as a Naval / former Naval aviator (I don't know which), what attributes would you like to see in such an aircraft besides your favouring twin engines? If you were in charge would you buy the F-35 (without being forced for lack of alternative, obviously)? All of the US carriers now and projected still have the catapult and arrestor cable features, correct?



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Offline rpm

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Re: F-35 Fighters Are Grounded
« Reply #136 on: February 26, 2013, 11:15:57 PM »
I wonder if we can look back at any wwII fighters that promised exceptional speed handling and climb, but could not deliver such claims untill stronger engines came later in the war.

Or how many ran over projected cost. Something tell me..almost all of them?
I know of one for sure, but it wasn't a fighter.
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Offline B3YT

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Re: F-35 Fighters Are Grounded
« Reply #137 on: February 27, 2013, 02:48:06 AM »
For the life of me I can't see the F35 being a tank killer like an A10 . The 30mm rounds used by the GUA-8 is  just so much more powerful than the GUA-12 25mm gun . Plus the A-10 carrying more than 4 times the ammount of ammo . The Gun is still the A10's main weapon , add into this the huge ammount of protection for the pilot and systems , the low speed handling and you just have two so very different aircraft .  If I was a pilot on CAS I'd want something that would be happy at 200-300Kts with a big bathtub on Ti around me to help stop flack from chopping me in half  .   You need to be able to  getting in low and close so you can identify your target correctly (the Blue on Blue tragedies in the gulf war with A10 came down to not getting in close enough to positive identify the threat and relying to much on people who were not there )  You also need to be going slow enough to be more fluid with your attack runs .

The F35 is just not suitable for this roll . The RAF acknowledge that the F35 can't do this  infact nothing apart for the AH-64 they have can fit this role . 
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Offline danny76

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Re: F-35 Fighters Are Grounded
« Reply #138 on: February 27, 2013, 03:04:49 AM »
AH64 is painfully slow and has silly servicing requirements.
There aren't a lot of them available and we very often had to rely on US to provide air support.

Not wishing to harp on but DECOMMISSIONING THE HARRIER WAS THE SINGLE MOST STUPID MOD MISTAKE OF MODERN TIMES!

Soldiers are dying as a result of getting rid of a proven  force multiplier without a replacement available
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Offline BaDkaRmA158Th

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Re: F-35 Fighters Are Grounded
« Reply #139 on: February 27, 2013, 03:52:06 AM »
Oh common rpm!!

:EDIT:


Whoever said the f-35 or ANY AIR CRAFT EVER MADE, could replace the A-10...ugh..same people who swear up and down the frog foot can do the same job, i want to....do......bad things to them.
Spend a few bill-mill-trill making a "stealthy-er?" A-10 with more engine power if possible would get my vote.
I would still adore if they made a F-14 StealthCat. THAT you can spend my tax money on :rock


The main problem i can see is it is a 21st century fighter facing the realm of 21st century anti aircraft technology. Weather that tech be launched by land air sea or space is anyone guess coming into the future. We can nit pick one single little fighter all we want, but the fact still remains this little bird can and will* do what aircraft designed and made 30+ years ago, some still flying today. Cannot.

Remember the past, this is first Gen 21st century fighter design, no one else has this. And the future will only be more bright when it comes to this tech and these designs. Anyone who argues a PRICE tag, for protection is a fool...a dead fool.
« Last Edit: February 27, 2013, 04:05:57 AM by BaDkaRmA158Th »
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Offline bozon

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Re: F-35 Fighters Are Grounded
« Reply #140 on: February 27, 2013, 03:57:49 AM »
The only thing that secured victory in Bosnia/Serbia was NATO's overwhelming air power. Norway cannot gamble on always having that advantage. The U.S. can afford to upkeep a multi-thousand fleet of combat aircraft. We have 50 old planes. We're buying 50 new planes to replace them. We want them to be the best we can get for our money.

Are you privy to the details of the F-35's complexity and practicality, or are you basing your opinion on what the media is feeding you?
I do not have the info, therefore I do not nitpick the fine details of where they installed the cup-holder and whether or not the coffee will spill at 4.5 G. My issue is with the fundamental concept of this plane. It is an over-design for almost all of its missions and at the same time a pile of compromises due to the very different requirements to do these missions. Some missions tend to have such requirements where the same platform can do both well. For example, air superiority planes tend to be decent at deep surgical strikes, because they are fast, capable of defending themselves and dont need to carry lots of bombs, or special means of delivery. Close air support? It has nothing in common with the other missions. They have got to put this in as a joke.

GSholz, I don't want this to sound insulting or anything, but 50 planes, which is two squadrons is nothing more than national pride. It is enough for a token participation in the attack of insignificant European countries, or 3rd world countries that are geographically incapable of a direct conflict. They will have very little impact on a full scale ground war. 50 interceptors would have been somewhat useful for actual defense of Norway. Focus on one mission you can select the plane best for this mission and train the pilots accordingly and efficiently. But then they would not be needed/sent to missions abroad and given the lack of actual aerial threats, be labeled parade army.

AH64 is painfully slow and has silly servicing requirements.
There aren't a lot of them available and we very often had to rely on US to provide air support.

Not wishing to harp on but DECOMMISSIONING THE HARRIER WAS THE SINGLE MOST STUPID MOD MISTAKE OF MODERN TIMES!

Soldiers are dying as a result of getting rid of a proven  force multiplier without a replacement available
AH64 is not close air support. They are tank/vehicle hunters. They are near useless against scattered troops (worse against dug in) and against fortifications. They are also very vulnerable. Much of their role will be taken by drones in the near future.

Close air support is changing. It is no longer a plane coming in with GP bombs and diving in through the acks on enemy positions. Instead, most of this role will be done by bomb trucks that can release the ords from distance while still flying over friendly territory and often not even guiding the munition themselves. Think science fiction orbital strike. For this you need a plane with long loiter time, lots of lifting capability and good avionics. Almost sounds like a B-52 will be ideal, except that you want a much quicker response time and a minimal ability to defend itself from fighters and SAMs (even though it is supposed to operate under friendly cover). F-35 does not have the loiter time, nor the carrying ability. Stealth is not needed, internal bays are not needed, thrust vectoring is not needed. The mission can be done by a much simpler (reliable, cheaper) plane. If someone insists on a classic close range support F-35 will be a total disaster, though almost no modern plane is well suited for this job - so why risk a shining new expensive plane? use the old attack planes for this role. They will do it just as good/bad.
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Offline BaDkaRmA158Th

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Re: F-35 Fighters Are Grounded
« Reply #141 on: February 27, 2013, 04:16:21 AM »
Sorry i will never agree with any weapon system being flown on wifi.  It is a signal that can be tracked, intercepted hacked bombed and hijacked.


I will ALWAYS put pressure to have a human being behind and IN the cockpit.




Drones may as well be considered zombies, and if anything like a zombie can drop a xxx amount of bombs on another human,then all flying bomb dropping zombies must be destroyed.



Also, what would it take to make a A-10 carrier worthy?? :D  :rock :pray :rock :pray
« Last Edit: February 27, 2013, 04:21:53 AM by BaDkaRmA158Th »
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Offline B3YT

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Re: F-35 Fighters Are Grounded
« Reply #142 on: February 27, 2013, 05:12:39 AM »
thats my point danny . I've spoken to many QDG soldiers who have praise (and fear) of the A10 . 

I'm sorry but CAS can not be done from range . Your talking about strafing runs maybe  10 - 30 meters away from your platoon . UK service men often relied on A-10 to strafe   about  20 meters in front of their line  to help with breaking a taliban attack . You can not do that sort of precision with stand off weapons  you have to be close and dirty .
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Offline bozon

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Re: F-35 Fighters Are Grounded
« Reply #143 on: February 27, 2013, 07:09:23 AM »
thats my point danny . I've spoken to many QDG soldiers who have praise (and fear) of the A10 . 

I'm sorry but CAS can not be done from range . Your talking about strafing runs maybe  10 - 30 meters away from your platoon . UK service men often relied on A-10 to strafe   about  20 meters in front of their line  to help with breaking a taliban attack . You can not do that sort of precision with stand off weapons  you have to be close and dirty .
When you are fighting Taliban then strafing runs are useful.  Against a regular army the strafing plane is very likely to get shot down.
I was not talking about stand-off weapons that are autonomous or guided by the plane that releases from a few miles away. The person that is doing the guiding is very close, either among the ground troops, or controlling a drone just above them.
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Offline nrshida

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Re: F-35 Fighters Are Grounded
« Reply #144 on: February 27, 2013, 08:00:37 AM »
GSholz, I don't want this to sound insulting or anything, but 50 planes, which is two squadrons is nothing more than national pride.

Uh oh...

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Offline Bodhi

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Re: F-35 Fighters Are Grounded
« Reply #145 on: February 27, 2013, 09:40:24 AM »
Remember the past, this is first Gen 21st century fighter design, no one else has this. And the future will only be more bright when it comes to this tech and these designs. Anyone who argues a PRICE tag, for protection is a fool...a dead fool.

Another very important thing to remember would be that the nation that spends itself from being wealthy into a pauper is likely to lose not only it's wealth, but it's freedom as well.  History is full of this lesson.
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Offline soda72

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Re: F-35 Fighters Are Grounded
« Reply #146 on: February 27, 2013, 10:00:47 AM »
For the life of me I can't see the F35 being a tank killer like an A10 . The 30mm rounds used by the GUA-8 is  just so much more powerful than the GUA-12 25mm gun . Plus the A-10 carrying more than 4 times the ammount of ammo . The Gun is still the A10's main weapon , add into this the huge ammount of protection for the pilot and systems , the low speed handling and you just have two so very different aircraft .  If I was a pilot on CAS I'd want something that would be happy at 200-300Kts with a big bathtub on Ti around me to help stop flack from chopping me in half  .   You need to be able to  getting in low and close so you can identify your target correctly (the Blue on Blue tragedies in the gulf war with A10 came down to not getting in close enough to positive identify the threat and relying to much on people who were not there )  You also need to be going slow enough to be more fluid with your attack runs .

The F35 is just not suitable for this roll . The RAF acknowledge that the F35 can't do this  infact nothing apart for the AH-64 they have can fit this role .  

They use to say the same thing about the F-16.   I was in Fort Sill doing training on calling in air support.   During that training the instructors informed us that the F-16 was going to replace the A-10.  This was in 1996 and A-10 is still around.   The A-10 is to specialized at what it does to be replaced by any aircraft, F-35 or otherwise.  

I can see the F-35 replacing the Harrier, F-16, and maybe the F-18.  
« Last Edit: February 27, 2013, 10:09:46 AM by soda72 »

Offline B3YT

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Re: F-35 Fighters Are Grounded
« Reply #147 on: February 27, 2013, 10:58:03 AM »
When you are fighting Taliban then strafing runs are useful.  Against a regular army the strafing plane is very likely to get shot down.
I was not talking about stand-off weapons that are autonomous or guided by the plane that releases from a few miles away. The person that is doing the guiding is very close, either among the ground troops, or controlling a drone just above them.

even against a regular army a plane that can get in low  not use up all it's stores just for 1 or two kills against tanks or fortified areas  and able to stick around is a must .  What was the most effective air to ground aircraft in Vietnam ? the A1 sky raider , why ? because it was the piston version of the A-10 .

CAS needs to be able to react as fast as possible that means see the threats before the ground troops do .  a pilot can not do that if it is using stand off weapons , an A-10 can do a gun pass every 10 seconds and a team of 2 can wipe out pretty much a whole tank column in a matter of minutes just with it's gun . A-10s are running at heights below 50ft at 200- 300Kts . on an attack run it will be exposed for 10 - 15 seconds in some terrain . that not a lot of time to track , lock and fire your shoulder mounted SAM ,  even if you are prepared for the attack .  plus the A-10 will have taken out SAM  an AAA threats before it reaches the hot zone  with HARM and AGM-64 .   There will always be a place for CAS that is low  and within spitting distance of the enemy  using gun and dumb bombs .  



Drones carry a very small amount of stores compared to A-10  plus a restricted  field of view for the operator . People are putting to much trust in drones , for this sort of work . Pilots working in twos or threes and able to get a real look at a battle field will work better than some grunt on the ground close to the battle who is busy dodging shots himself , unable to get any real idea of what is happening on the ground  due to the VF  being relatively poor compared to human eyes. Drones have their place  but pure CAS is not it .   
« Last Edit: February 27, 2013, 11:02:28 AM by B3YT »
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Offline JunkyII

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Re: F-35 Fighters Are Grounded
« Reply #148 on: February 27, 2013, 11:05:47 AM »
Had the privilege of working very close to A10s, AH64s, and a lot more different birds in my time in Afghanistan.

A10, AC130, and AH64 will be the US close combat aircraft for at least 10 more years. No Supersonic jet can do the same job....not because they can't but because a High ranking officer wont let it because of the price.

The Apache and Spectre both are great weapons/ ISR platforms

A10 fly lower then any other combat fix wing aircraft. I have been close enough to see and hear the rudder move. A plane with a high price tag, like a Mirage wont come within 500 feet of the ground while doing a show of force.

F35 is just the next gen all around fighter, but it isn't replacing any of the real killers anytime soon.
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Offline B3YT

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Re: F-35 Fighters Are Grounded
« Reply #149 on: February 27, 2013, 11:20:56 AM »


A10 fly lower then any other combat fix wing aircraft. I have been close enough to see and hear the rudder move. A plane with a high price tag, like a Mirage wont come within 500 feet of the ground while doing a show of force.



I live in Wales Uk and seen F4 phantoms , Jaguars and Tornado GR1 flying below 100ft (Jaguars were probably 50ft ish  as I was on a fire road just above the valley floor looking DOWN on the Jags) 
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