Reminder concerning 109E and 110C Jabos.

[Arlo]

"- 109Es and 110Cs must be used in Jabo role. They cannot be assigned as sweep or escort." 

Self-persecute much, Perdue?

[Spikes]

"- 109Es and 110Cs must be used in Jabo role. They cannot be assigned as sweep or escort." 

Self-persecute much, Perdue?

I do not think that is the argument here. It is whether or not it is clearly stated that the jabo planes must resume their role after re-arm, which is not part of the rules from what I have read.

If the planes are assigned as jabos, and end up having to dogfight, they are still abiding by the rules.

[Arlo]

If the planes are assigned as jabos, and end up having to dogfight, they are still abiding by the rules.

Having to dogfight and looking for a dogfight are two different bananas.

'Hey! Can we grab to 20k after dropping our bomb?!'

Sure ... but why? You're headed for the egg distribution facility for another, aren't you? You're obviously not switching to fighter sweep or escort roles. By the time you're at 20k you're likely out of the fight and in a sector that is free of bogies. Your base isn't that high.

Nobody's trying to create an environment where the Emils and 110s can't defend themselves. That's not even a remotely good argument regarding the Jabos wanting to grab to 19,999 feet 5 seconds after drop.

This comes off more like 'how do we use our Emils and 110s in the fighter role in spite of what the rules say' loophole fishing.

Honestly, I have film of Emils (below 15k, granted) not interested in rearming, whatsoever. They were clear of any enemy fighters engaging. They were cruising around looking for engagements. I'd call that a 15k and under fighter sweep.  And .... frankly .... I didn't care until KNs took to 'clarifying' the rules in this thread. Funny how the rearm/tower out bonuses are 'obvious' in spite of the wording but Jabos being given the green light to hit the ceiling after a drop is now very important and must be highly detailed in the rules   ......  for some reason.

Hell, Shifty, just give them the green light to make Jabo their secondary assignment and sweep their primary once they drop. I really don't see the threat.  

[Spikes]

Well, personally, if I was going to be a bomber all frame, I'd rather fly a bomber. There are 5 planes in this setup and 4 of them are tasked as bombers. It does not seem right to me, but then again it is not my setup. I am just pointing it out. I wouldn't mind one bit flying a couple bombs to a target, but not the entire frame. That is what Ju88s and Ju87s are for.

[Devil 505]

Arlo, this clarification is for benefit ALL AXIS SQUADS. With the nature of having some extremely inflexible ride assignments for the Axis side, nearly every squad was given a mix of attack planes and pure fighters last frame. e.g. KN was assigned 4 109E's the rest in 109F-4's. After the drop, wouldn't it benefit those groups with mixed types(which was every squad) to remain at a similar location and altitude on egress?

[Arlo]

Well, personally, if I was going to be a bomber all frame, I'd rather fly a bomber. There are 5 planes in this setup and 4 of them are tasked as bombers. It does not seem right to me, but then again it is not my setup. I am just pointing it out. I wouldn't mind one bit flying a couple bombs to a target, but not the entire frame. That is what Ju88s and Ju87s are for.

Which is a much more honest way of approaching the matter, I reckon. Even from the other side of this event, I fully agree. Like I said, I didn't see the need to even mention it until I saw the bit-piece 'clarification' game begin.  

 

[Arlo]

Arlo, this clarification is for benefit ALL AXIS SQUADS. With the nature of having some extremely inflexible ride assignments for the Axis side, nearly every squad was given a mix of attack planes and pure fighters last frame. e.g. KN was assigned 4 109E's the rest in 109F-4's. After the drop, wouldn't it benefit those groups with mixed types(which was every squad) to remain at a similar location and altitude on egress?

Sure! Fly the Franz at 15k.

[Triton28]

I am guessing you didnt read the whole thread. We know the Jabo alt cap is 15K. But apparently they become fighters when their ordnance is dropped. That sir, is not in the rules. However, we appreciate your input.

 
I appreciate your appreciation, sir.     I did, in fact, misunderstand your question.  One-thousand apologies coming your way.    
 

Did we figure out whether this omission had an actual impact on the frame?  Also, why would you climb to 20k on rtb if you're not supposed to be fighter sweeping?




 

 

[Stampf]

Wow.. I can't believe this is still going...then again...yes I can.

Sorry Shifty, I was only asking half in jest, as I'm sure you know. 

No...there was no impact in the frame.  My question came from the position of frame 1 experience.  JG11 was split 50/50 in (8)110's and (8)109f's.  During the course of the night we picked up stragglers, survivors,...the lost 109E here and there...etc...

Targets were either destroyed, or out of reach, and was just really wondering what the rule was for late frame actions. 

A 15K cap regardless of situation, on these airframes might make it easier for all.

[Spikes]

Which is a much more honest way of approaching the matter, I reckon. Even from the other side of this event, I fully agree. Like I said, I didn't see the need to even mention it until I saw the bit-piece 'clarification' game begin. 

 

[j500ss]

Arlo, this clarification is for benefit ALL AXIS SQUADS. With the nature of having some extremely inflexible ride assignments for the Axis side, nearly every squad was given a mix of attack planes and pure fighters last frame. e.g. KN was assigned 4 109E's the rest in 109F-4's. After the drop, wouldn't it benefit those groups with mixed types(which was every squad) to remain at a similar location and altitude on egress?

One cannot really argue with the common sense logic of this statement, it in fact does benefit jabos, bombers and fighters alike.   Also cannot argue the inflexible ride assignment theory, that actually effects both sides in this setup, more so probably the VVS than Axis, but still heavily effects both sides.  In the end jabos/ bombers that are on egress to RTB mixed with pure fighters and escorts at 20K should not really pose a threat, so in essence no big deal.

   

[perdue3]

Another point is brought up by Stampf. May the Emils and 110C's ditch bombs after rearm and go fighter? Thus allowing them to 20K.

This thread would come to an end if a CM would step up and answer a few questions.

[Arlo]

Another point is brought up by Stampf. May the Emils and 110C's ditch bombs after rearm and go fighter? Thus allowing them to 20K.

This thread would come to an end if a CM would step up and answer a few questions.

 

You're rather lop-sided when it comes to rule interpretation and what is and isn't 'obvious.' 

Swifty, 'end' the thread. Let's test the theory. 

[Shifty]

Another point is brought up by Stampf. May the Emils and 110C's ditch bombs after rearm and go fighter? Thus allowing them to 20K.

This thread would come to an end if a CM would step up and answer a few questions.

That question was answered in my initial reply to Stampf. On page 1 post 3.

Yes it is. 

After you make your Jabo attack you're free to fly up to the down draft if you wish.
Once you rearm you're a Jabo again.

[SlipKnt]

This really should be black & white. 

IMHO - If assigned a plane in the jabbo role, they shouldn't be above 15K period.  Regardless if they have ord or not. 

Against the I16...   ...you really don't NEED alt!!!   

A small group of 109Es were enroute to target at 17K to 20K last week.  They engaged the fight / furball with the 109Fs and I16s AFTER the merge but BEFORE attacking their target.

That was a rule violation (special rules).  I recommend that if you are in the 109E (jabbo role) in this month's FSO, just stay below 15K and this thread would become obsolete...

 
SlipKnoT