K4 is easy mode vs. K4 is a symbol of courage

[Karnak]

Ok, is a good secondary learning aircraft. I'll give you that.

But it's easier to be EFFECTIVE in the spit. And I still don't think you've gotten to what easy mode truly is.

Spitfire VIII and XVI are easier than the Bf109K-4, certainly.  Not sure if the Spitfire IX or XIV is easier though.  I don't think the Spitfire I or V is as easy.

As to what easy mode is, well, it depends on the skill level of the player.  The more skills the player has to work with the more things get opened up as easy.  Hence the Spitfire Mk XVI being a 10/10 on easy rating, Spitfire Mk VIII being a 9/10 or 9.5/10, the Bf109K-4 being a 7/10 or 8/10 and the P-40E being a 2/10.  The player needs more skills to use the more difficult planes successfully, but there are far fewer skills, and they are easier skills to learn, needed to be successful in the Bf109K-4 than in the P-40E.

[LCADolby]

I'd take everyother model of 109 over the K4 anyday.

[tunnelrat]

I'd take everyother model of 109 over the K4 anyday.

BOOM!

[LCADolby]

BOOM!

(Image removed from quote.)

Yeah... like that's in AcesHigh.

[Latrobe]

Yeah... like that's in AcesHigh.

I bet we could build one from spare parts off all my crashed 109s. 

[Triton28]

BOOM!

(Image removed from quote.)

A wannabe P-38!  Silly Germans!   

[tunnelrat]

Yeah... like that's in AcesHigh.

You don't specify, and I am IN YOUR CHILLI, SIR.

[Megalodon]

Krutch4.... perk it!!

[Zacherof]

Krutch4.... perk it!!

Dolby is the key master!  The master!!!

He doesn't need another engine 

[Pand]

Dolby is the key master!  The master!!!

He doesn't need another engine  

If dolby is the key master, does that make debrody the gatekeeper?    

[Zodiac]

Probably more a ENY 15 ride, maybe 20. Compare it to the Bf109F-4 and it isn't too different, rolls better, better firepower and better cockpit visibility.  Speed and climb are very similar.

I would have to strongly disagree here Karnak...10-12 for the K4, and 15-20 for Ki-84?

[Karnak]

I would have to strongly disagree here Karnak...10-12 for the K4, and 15-20 for Ki-84?

Well, lets break it down a bit.

Ki-84-Ia vs Bf109K-4:
Basic data:


Raw performance clearly favors the Bf109K-4, particularly as the altitude goes up.

That said, there are some places the Ki-84-Ia is clearly superior such as roll rate, turn rate, turn radius, range and bomb load.

I think, in general, we can consider the Ki-84-Ia to be a jack of all trades fighter, and a good one, whereas the Bf109K-4 is a pure interceptor.

I tend to focus on air-to-air capability so I probably have a bias there and the Bf109K-4's superior survivability due to sheer performance may cause me to see the Bf109K-4 as properly at a 10 while seeing the Ki-84-Ia more as a 15 or 20.

In the sheer performance category I compare the Ki-84-Ia to the Bf109F-4 and they seem relatively close, so it is hard for me to see the Ki-84 as an ENY 10 fighter when the Bf109F-4 is an ENY 30 fighter.


That said, the Spitfire Mk XVI is, speedwise at low altitude, in much the same place and it is clearly not an ENY 30 fighter, it is very properly an ENY 5 fighter.


The things not shown in those charts matter, and there is a lot that isn't shown.  The Ki-84-Ia's range is much better than the Bf109F-4's, its roll rate is much better, its cockpit visibility is much better and its firepower is much better.  It also has usable air-to-ground capability, like the Spitfire Mk XVI.  One can make a very strong argument that the Ki-84-Ia is in full competition with the Spitfire Mk XVI for the best of the jack of all trades fighters crown.  The Spitfire climbs better and has better guns, but the Ki-84 is tougher, faster on MIL at low altitudes and has much better range.

The Ki-84-Ia is probably a 10-15 ENY fighter along with the Bf109K-4.

[Zacherof]

Grrerrr cant argue with statistics.

[Ardy123]

Because the ki-84s performance characteristics, it is easier to have success in with less experience. It can turn easier than a k4, and unless someone has experience on how to utilize the vert to overcome (which most noobs can't), they will have more success in a Ki84. Furthermore, place both in a knife fight with equal pilots, the ki will win most of the time due to its flaps/ better turn rate/ better roll rate, etc...

Even among vets this is true... NRShida and I used to duel k4 vs ki84 and unless it could be kept a pure vert fight, the ki-84 would get the angle eventually, its flaps are truly impressive.

[Karnak]

I don't think ENY should be set primarily based on what newbies can do.  In fact, I think that ought to be pretty low on the list of criteria as newbies will manage to do very little regardless of what they are flying.  I recall helping a new player in the TA years ago.  He had signed up for his two week trial and jumped into the MA where he grabbed THE GREATEST FIGHTER OF WWII, the P-51D Mustang, and proceeded to have his rear handed to him by a Spitfire Mk V.  Repeatedly.

I encountered him in the TA while he was messing around with the Spitfire Mk V, as it had just crushed his P-51D with ease, and commenting on how the P-51D was supposed to be able to out turn the Zero, let alone the Spitfire, because it was THE GREATEST FIGHTER OF WWII.  Yes, he was putting his Mustang on its side and turning with a Spitfire Mk V and the results were predictable.  I worked with him for a few hours and helped him understand a bit about the strengths and weaknesses of the different aircraft and how to try to use and exploit them.  I don't know if he subbed or not, but at least he had an idea of what had happened to him.

The fact is that if he had been British instead of American and grabbed a Spitfire Mk V and run into an A6M5 or A6M2 the same exact scenario would have happened.  His GREATEST FIGHTER OF WWII would have been blasted from the sky with ease.

If we were to use what a newbie could do with a fighter the 5 ENY fighters would be the A6Ms, Brewster, Hurricane Mk II and, perhaps, the Ki-43-II.  I think we can all agree that wouldn't be an accurate place for ENY 5 to reside in terms of impact on the MA.