Author Topic: Commercial whaling: For/Against/Indifferent?  (Read 3034 times)

Offline gyrene81

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 11629
Re: Commercial whaling: For/Against/Indifferent?
« Reply #120 on: May 17, 2013, 02:36:30 PM »
 :headscratch:  i have a question (keep in mind i used to hunt and fish every single season that i could get a license for)...if humans are building houses and towns in the natural habitat of deer (for example) that existed long before european settlers even knew what it looked like, which one is the pest, the deer or the human?


So with the exception of Gyrene, which honestly seems a bit extreme, the general consensus is that whaling is fine as long as we eat them and don't kill them off?
first you accuse me of being vegan, now i'm extreme? come on...i'm simply in touch with reality. every excuse you have given for killing whales can be applied to humans, only more so since there are more of us. only difference is, we are more destructive and dangerous, but we're the ones making the rules...
« Last Edit: May 17, 2013, 02:39:53 PM by gyrene81 »
jarhed  
Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day...
Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life. - Terry Pratchett

Offline GScholz

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8910
Re: Commercial whaling: For/Against/Indifferent?
« Reply #121 on: May 17, 2013, 02:47:17 PM »
Well... It's not like we don't kill humans too. Just not for food. Some places they kill each other over food, but that's different. You're advocating some sort of equal rights for animals; clearly demonstrated by your latest post. The deer are the pests, not the humans. Humans can be pests to other humans though, and then we invariably kill them too.
"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censored, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."

Offline gyrene81

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 11629
Re: Commercial whaling: For/Against/Indifferent?
« Reply #122 on: May 17, 2013, 02:59:36 PM »
Well... It's not like we don't kill humans too. Just not for food. Some places they kill each other over food, but that's different. You're advocating some sort of equal rights for animals; clearly demonstrated by your latest post.
then you're getting the wrong idea. i'm pointing out the flawed thinking of what you believe is good stewardship in order to maintain a way of life and a source of food. it would be different if someone was doing something to assist the whales in recoving their numbers or even increasing (like providing food) and not just hunting them thinking there are enough for the species to survive long term.


The deer are the pests, not the humans. Humans can be pests to other humans though, and then we invariably kill them too.
you have to explain where you got that idea...here in the u.s. we have people moving out of the urban sprawl that we created (abandoned and condemned buildings crumbling everywhere) only to destroy natural habitat so people can build paved roads and houses in the woods, then complain when the wildlife interferes with their lives. yet they sit in front of their televsions and get angry when someone like VonMessa and RTHolmes suggests "culling the population" of one animal or another. all the while forgetting the animals that had to die or move in order for them to have a paved road to their new house in the woods.
jarhed  
Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day...
Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life. - Terry Pratchett

Offline RTHolmes

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8260
Re: Commercial whaling: For/Against/Indifferent?
« Reply #123 on: May 17, 2013, 03:08:31 PM »
the deer are a pest near me because there are so many. there are so many because some of their natural preditors became extinct long ago, and the others (us) buy food from supermarkets instead of hunting them regularly. we also farm very intensively and have cleared forest so they have a far more abundant food supply than 1000yrs ago. there are also a couple of species which are non-native (ie. we were here 1000s of years before they arrived/were introduced.)

culls will just restore the natural balance. and make some excellent burgers :aok
71 (Eagle) Squadron

What most of us want to do is simply shoot stuff and look good doing it - Chilli

Offline GScholz

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8910
Re: Commercial whaling: For/Against/Indifferent?
« Reply #124 on: May 17, 2013, 03:18:23 PM »
Gyrene, again you seem to ignore the fact that the minke whale population is increasing; and to such a level we may cull them to keep the population more healthy (better meat). You also ignore the fact that we have been successfully shepherding this resource for more than a thousand years.

As for the deer, again you seem to advocate some sort of equal rights for animals. Animals don't have property rights; they live on land that we own. There isn't a square foot of land on Earth that isn't owned by humans, and if the animals want it they will have to fight for it. In fact the deer are themselves our property to do with as we please. The only right animals have is to be killed with minimal suffering, within reason; and that is more etiquette than law in most countries.
"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censored, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."

Offline GScholz

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8910
Re: Commercial whaling: For/Against/Indifferent?
« Reply #125 on: May 17, 2013, 03:27:26 PM »
Episode 3 - Hunters stew (with rice)!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-8nRIrP_fsg
"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censored, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."

Offline mbailey

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5677
Re: Commercial whaling: For/Against/Indifferent?
« Reply #126 on: May 17, 2013, 03:29:30 PM »


you have to explain where you got that idea...here in the u.s. we have people moving out of the urban sprawl that we created (abandoned and condemned buildings crumbling everywhere) only to destroy natural habitat so people can build paved roads and houses in the woods, then complain when the wildlife interferes with their lives. yet they sit in front of their televsions and get angry when someone like VonMessa and RTHolmes suggests "culling the population" of one animal or another. all the while forgetting the animals that had to die or move in order for them to have a paved road to their new house in the woods.

 In my state (PA) the deer herd is larger, and healther than it was around the turn of the century, and home building is at an all time high. Heck, there was a time around the turn of the century (1900's)in PA when the Whitetailed Deer was thought to be gone from the state.How did it recover? Thru the actions of sportsmen/women keeping the deer population in check with the available habitat, combined with a Game Commision that is excellent.


Your quote about "culling the population" and sitting in front of the TV reminds me of the lady i saw that whacked a deer in her Mercedes down in Buckingham PA (VonMessa knows the area im talking about, average house is in the 6 or 7 digit price range). I stopped to give her a hand, and get the deer off the road. She was flipping out over the(bleeping)  damages to her car, saying something needs to be done about all the (bleeping deer...she went on to say something like "first my landscaping and now my bleeping car") I walked around the back of the car and low and behold on the bumper was a PETA sticker, and another one about not eating meat or something like that. Knowing she was obviously unhurt, i dragged the deer off the road, walked by her and  told her to call PETA, maybe they could figure it out for her. It was hypocracy at its finest.

The other nice thing that we have come up with is the "Hunters Harvest" whereas if a deer is hit, or if a hunter wants to, he can donate a all or a portion of the animal to a local food bank, with the Game Commission assisting in the costs of getting the animal butchered.
« Last Edit: May 17, 2013, 03:31:17 PM by mbailey »
Mbailey
80th FS "Headhunters"

Ichi Go Ichi E
Character is like a tree and reputation like its shadow. The shadow is what we think of it; the tree is the real thing.

When the game is over, the Kings and Pawns all go into the same box.

Offline gyrene81

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 11629
Re: Commercial whaling: For/Against/Indifferent?
« Reply #127 on: May 17, 2013, 05:27:40 PM »
Gyrene, again you seem to ignore the fact that the minke whale population is increasing; and to such a level we may cull them to keep the population more healthy (better meat). You also ignore the fact that we have been successfully shepherding this resource for more than a thousand years.
i hate to tell you this but, "culling" does not make the population "more healthy" or make better meat. if it did, the thousand years your people have supposedly spent "shepherding" the whales would not have resulted in the 3 year ban on whale hunting.
During the 1990's they set the quotas very low and for three years they outright banned whaling in Norway due to an unknown negative development in the minke whale population (possibly disease). This led to economic hardship for the whaling fleet, but that is irrelevant to the science and conservation of this resource.
after a thousand years, a genetically stronger stock should exist now and would not have suffered a collapse due to an "unknown negative development". one would think that after a thousand years someone would have come up with better methods to not only insure the survival of the species but figure out a ways to increase the numbers so that discussions like this wouldn't even exist. fact is limiting the seasonal catch is the only thing the country has done, just like many other countries. nothing special...



As for the deer, again you seem to advocate some sort of equal rights for animals. Animals don't have property rights; they live on land that we own. There isn't a square foot of land on Earth that isn't owned by humans, and if the animals want it they will have to fight for it. In fact the deer are themselves our property to do with as we please. The only right animals have is to be killed with minimal suffering, within reason; and that is more etiquette than law in most countries.
lol, i see the neanderthal mentality isn't just an american thing. if animals don't have rights to exist where they did millenia before the encroachment of humans, what gives the human animal rights? what, because we're the ones making up the rules, we get to dictate what has rights and what doesn't? you are a single specimen of a highly destructive invasive species, just as susceptible to being displaced as any other species walking the planet, a temporary resident with a shorter lifespan than some reptiles. humans don't own any more of the planet than a colony of ants. in fact, using the human idea of possession equals ownership, ants own more of the planet than humans. the only right humans have, is the same right that applies to every other species, the right to live and die. in order to do that, we need to make sure we take the time to ensure the survival of other species that we depend on for our survival and in sufficient numbers to feed our growing populations. can't do that by industrial farming (it creates a genetic cesspool that is more susceptible to disease and defect than other methods), or destroying habitat to the point where the animals have to invade our alternate food sources in order to survive. killing animals because they are getting in the way of progress is a self defeating practice. in the case of culling herds of white tail deer, wouldn't it make more sense to relocate the animals from more highly populated regions to places that are less populated and perhaps spread the genetic pool out a little? conservationists do it to alligators, and fewer people rely on them for sport and food than white tailed deer.
jarhed  
Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day...
Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life. - Terry Pratchett

Offline GScholz

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8910
Re: Commercial whaling: For/Against/Indifferent?
« Reply #128 on: May 17, 2013, 05:36:13 PM »
I'm sorry, but I can't take you seriously.  We'll never agree, so let's just leave it at that. :)
"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censored, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."

Offline gyrene81

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 11629
Re: Commercial whaling: For/Against/Indifferent?
« Reply #129 on: May 17, 2013, 05:43:44 PM »
dammit and i was just starting to enjoy it GScholz...  :lol 

i wouldn't mind trying some minke whale if i ever get the opportunity. and i really do hope they last long enough for your great great grand children to enjoy, not just eating but seeing in their natural habitat.
jarhed  
Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day...
Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life. - Terry Pratchett

Offline RTHolmes

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8260
Re: Commercial whaling: For/Against/Indifferent?
« Reply #130 on: May 17, 2013, 05:44:11 PM »
holy wall of non-sequiturs and misinformation!  :huh
71 (Eagle) Squadron

What most of us want to do is simply shoot stuff and look good doing it - Chilli

Offline GScholz

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8910
Re: Commercial whaling: For/Against/Indifferent?
« Reply #131 on: May 17, 2013, 05:44:24 PM »
 :aok
"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censored, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."

Offline gyrene81

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 11629
Re: Commercial whaling: For/Against/Indifferent?
« Reply #132 on: May 17, 2013, 05:45:58 PM »
holy wall of non-sequitors and misinformation!  :huh
what, you don't like the idea of relocating rather than culling?
jarhed  
Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day...
Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life. - Terry Pratchett

Offline RTHolmes

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8260
Re: Commercial whaling: For/Against/Indifferent?
« Reply #133 on: May 17, 2013, 05:48:44 PM »
how about a compromise - relocation to the nearest butchers?
71 (Eagle) Squadron

What most of us want to do is simply shoot stuff and look good doing it - Chilli

Offline whiteman

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 4228
Re: Commercial whaling: For/Against/Indifferent?
« Reply #134 on: May 17, 2013, 05:51:53 PM »
how about a compromise - relocation to the nearest butchers?

sounds delicious.