Using the TBM-3 in Coral Sea setups

[perdue3]

I think its more along the lines of its the closest plane we have that carries a torpedo in the pacific theater that resembles the Devastator, I'd like to see what CAP says on this.

The BF-110C gets to replace the Ki-45 (in which I think is overkill in terms of performance and gun package)
The Ki-61 also replaces something else, oh and the Ki-43 was always flown as the A6m5 until we finally got the Ki-43 which is a nice trade since the A6m5 was overkill vs early war rides.
Ki-67 replaces.... G3m? Ki-48 sally? Not sure on this one since the Ki-67 was a late war only plane.

From the Logs, it seems the TBMs got chewed up pretty good, don't sound like much of a performance difference being its a late war ride, compared to some other aircrafts that get subbed in for like above.
If anything, have the TBM's fly at cruise speed and all you got is a beefed up Devastator with 50 cals replacing the 30 cals- they are still dead meat to a zero.

A6M2 always replaced the Ki-43. Ju 88 replaced the He 11 (huge upgrade). 110C is an upgrade for the Ki-45 and if you do a BBS search you will see that I complained about it. I ended up leading the 110C's in Rangoon lol.

Beefed up TBD huh? That doesnt even deserve a response. What would you say a P-51D is when compared to an A-36? Beefed up A-36? Supersized A-36? Streamlined BT-13?

[APDrone]

Well done, Perdue   

I think getting somebody to skin a B5N to look American ( blue.. white underside..  VHTC-# for an identifier, American markings ) would work nicely.  It would be more suitable than the TBM.

The one thing that seemingly keeps getting overlooked or undervalued, is that even if you're in an SBD or TBM, if you get behind a baddie, you have enough frontal firepower to make them pay dearly.  That isn't an option in the IJN bombers.  That feeling of helplessness isn't a lot of fun, when you encounter being harvested repeatedly ( which, in reality, is what it truly is ).

However, not all nights are bad.  We survived frame 3 ( for the most part ) and got to lacerate a couple SBDs that we caught in their turns..

   

[Shifty]

Joke Arlo, joke. 

[perdue3]

Well done, Perdue   

I think getting somebody to skin a B5N to look American ( blue.. white underside..  VHTC-# for an identifier, American markings ) would work nicely.  It would be more suitable than the TBM.

The one thing that seemingly keeps getting overlooked or undervalued, is that even if you're in an SBD or TBM, if you get behind a baddie, you have enough frontal firepower to make them pay dearly.  That isn't an option in the IJN bombers.  That feeling of helplessness isn't a lot of fun, when you encounter being harvested repeatedly ( which, in reality, is what it truly is ).

However, not all nights are bad.  We survived frame 3 ( for the most part ) and got to lacerate a couple SBDs that we caught in their turns..

(Image removed from quote.)   

To add to your anecdote, the problem for the Japanese in the Coral Sea was not the F4F or the TBD. The problem were the SBD's. The Dauntless won the Battle of the Coral Sea and the Battle of Midway. In these FSO events, the SBD's should be the problem. Not the damn late 44 TBM-3 with its R-2600-40 and additional armor. We found ourselves ignoring the TBM'-3's in this FSO because we knew we would be wasting our time. Yes, we can kill 3-5 of them but for what? They will allow those pesky SBD's to get on the boat and give the Wildcat's a great chance at catching us with our pants down.

[Triton28]

You're simply ignoring what myself and others are saying.  I saw nothing that suggested the Allies got some unfair advantage by using the TBM.  Period.  That's not conjecture, or theortical, it's what I observed from flying in all three frames.  When spotted, Zero's caught and made quick work of TBM's.

I also disagree with the "difference is just paint job" when substituting Jap planes for Allied.  The differences between the two are way more than paint job.  Personally, I think CAP made the right call when faced with the choice, and it's not because I was flying Allied.  The TBM is the closest substitution for TBD that was availible.

We disagree.   
 

[USAFCAPcTSgt]

That's why you just have the dive bombers and torpedo planes only.  Let them do their jobs without any fighter defense and see how each side fares.  Then it will be whether the FSO players can hit their targets with accuracy.  Fleet ack will be still firing especially with 3 CV groups together.

It won't make a difference if you're in a TBM or B5N carrying a torp.  Each player will either hit or miss depending in their aim.  SBD and D3A players in the same boat especially when the CVs are turning with all the ack firing.

[alpini13]

I thought the information provided by ARLO about how many tbm's were shot down in fram 1,2,and 3 was very funny, i showed it two several people here and they could not stop laughing.......why? Becuase you provided only one side of the information, you did not show how many japanese planes were shot down by tbm's,and you did not show how many japanese aircraft engaged tbm's and only recieved an assist....this would have complete the information to be compared.....but instead, you selected the information that supported your point.  thats what we call  bait and switch........you know, where you use only information to pretend you are contributing,but in reality you are just shining the spotlight away from the actual point,because you cant defend  the point with valid informaton.    arlo,please list the other information for a real comparison, thank you

[HighTone]

I agree with perdweeb on the performance issue alone. The TBM is a huge upgrade over the TBD that we don't have.

In Shattered Sword, it was stated that the TBD with a torpedo on had a top speed of about 130mph.... 


However I don't like seeing a substitute that makes an allied plane fly axis, or an axis plane fly allied. I loose some immersion factor in that trade. Ju-88's for He-111's or Zekes for Oscars is one thing, but B5N's for TBD's is another IMO.

I think until the TBD is added, we should just sub the A6M2 for the A6M3 in these situations. 

That may be a tough sell as well. Better we just get the TBD 

[Shifty]

That's why you just have the dive bombers and torpedo planes only.  Let them do their jobs without any fighter defense and see how each side fares.  Then it will be whether the FSO players can hit their targets with accuracy.  Fleet ack will be still firing especially with 3 CV groups together.

It won't make a difference if you're in a TBM or B5N carrying a torp.  Each player will either hit or miss depending in their aim.  SBD and D3A players in the same boat especially when the CVs are turning with all the ack firing.

More ships were sunk over the three frames of this FSO then sunk during the four days of the actual battle. The bombers got through regardless if they were IJN or USN there's no need to remove fighters from the setup.

[Butcher]

In Shattered Sword, it was stated that the TBD with a torpedo on had a top speed of about 130mph.... 

What plane in Aces High flies at its operational speed? not one does. Jump into the Main arena and watch B-17s at 30k on full power.

[perdue3]

More ships were sunk over the three frames of this FSO then sunk during the four days of the actual battle. The bombers got through regardless if they were IJN or USN there's no need to remove fighters from the setup.

Look at our numbers in one frame versus the numbers in the actual battle. Then try to make your point.

[Butcher]

Look at our numbers in one frame versus the numbers in the actual battle. Then try to make your point.

You are comparing the actual battle to a video game, really?

[Shifty]

Look at our numbers in one frame versus the numbers in the actual battle. Then try to make your point.

The point I'm trying to make has nothing to do with your TBM B5N debate. I happen to agree with you on the B5N TBM issue the B5N is a closer match to the TBD than the TBM.
My post has to do with the guy suggesting we run the setup without fighters. Not to mention we cannot recreate actual numbers unless we're going to start asking folks to sit out.

[Gman]

I wonder what would happen if you put Fester, Kappa, and some other ace in TBM's on the deck, and had Triton28, Arlo, and some other person arguing that it makes no difference in A6M's in a little test in the DA in a best of 10 what would happen?  I'd lay money down that Fester and Kappa would probably either kill or escape from the A6M's far more often than they would fall to them.

[Ruah]

Just a word to you guys who are referencing axis kills of TBM-3 in Coral Sea:

I have killed TBM-3 in Coral Sea, all of us have, sometimes, depending on good positioning, JG11 or KN or anyone has had a good day against these planes. But Kappa and Fester could probably kill most of us in any plane in an A6M2 given time and patience - so yes - their kill sheet is impressive and I assume (since English is my second language, I sometimes miss these subtle hints) the reason you posted it was to say the rest of us need to improve?  Other than this (and I believe you are trolling then) I cannot think of any logic to what your argument is (other then to simply distract or to troll). 

The TBM-3 is too good, an argument has been put forth, it would be nice to see at least that admitted before people go running off with "hay look, these guys did well in it. . ."

There is also a trend to use this past scenario specifically, to confuse this with some 'whine thread' I assure you it is something that has irked me (as one of the few 'Japanese Empire' fans in mostly a Luft dominated Axis side) since my first frame in an A6M2 chasing a TBM down (this was awhile back) and being called to break off because - and I quote - "you will run out of gas before you catch them Ruah'. . .

During the war, at all stages during the war, torpedo bombers were never a threat, not to the allies (who killed a lot of Vales) nor to the Japanese (the TB loss was one of the highest in the war for any plane allied side), the SBDs were the killers, the TBs the distraction/meat shield. . . having a plane that is zipping through the fighter cap at 450 is. . .well. . . beyond unrealistic.  


back on point:

why not the vale?

It is a lot closer in terms of performance, it will die in droves (as it should), and it will better illustrate that the Battle of Coral sea was not an easy win for the Yanks and how the SBD was the real hero of the Pacific war.