Okay stat and knowledge junkies

[BluBerry]

Fast is boring. Take your time to come down from 30k in a tail stall, much more fun. 

[SmokinLoon]

In high speed dives... TURN OFF COMBAT TRIM!  It really screws up the aircraft at higher speeds.

Point being: while testing the dive speed, etc, you'll get a better measure if the combat trim is off.   

[drgondog]

Spit had the highest Mcr and will lead halfway through the dive.  The 51 and 47 will be neck and neck. If the 47 had the dive flap (P-47D-30?) it will recover about like the 51.  Both the 51 and 47 had signs of Ultimate stress re:Buckling and popped rivets, etc at .85M.  The Spit Mcr was >.85 and has been dived with significant structural damage above .9M. It should win

The NAA/NACA 45-100 had a high MCr for a fat wing because the max T/C was around 45% and delayed onset drag. The 51 did not display a change to CMac like the others as the shock wave moved to max T/C (which forced nose down pitching moment - and made the stick forces to recover high for all the other ships).

 I don't believe the others are in this race to the deck

[GScholz]

The only real direct comparisons we have are the anecdotal experiences of WWII pilots.


"My flight chased 12 109s south of Vienna. They climbed and we followed, unable to close on them. At 38,000 feet I fired a long burst at one of them from at least a 1000 yards, and saw some strikes. It rolled over and dived and I followed but soon reached compressibility with severe
buffeting of the tail and loss of elevator control. I slowed my plane and regained control, but the 109 got away.

On two other occasions ME 109s got away from me because the P 51d could not stay with them in a high-speed dive. At 525-550 mph the plane would start to porpoise uncontrollably and had to be slowed to regain control. The P 51 was redlined at 505 mph, meaning that this speed should not be exceeded. But when chasing 109s or 190s in a dive from 25-26,000 it often was exceeded, if you wanted to keep up with those enemy planes."

- Robert C.Curtis, American P-51 pilot.



"Thomas L. Hayes, Jr. recalled diving after a fleeing Me-109G until both aircraft neared the sound barrier and their controls locked. Both pilots took measures to slow down, but to Hayes' astonishment, the Me-109 was the first to pull out of its dive. As he belatedly regained control of his Mustang, Hayes was grateful that the German pilot chose to quit while he was ahead and fly home instead of taking advantage of Hayes' momentary helplessness. Hayes also stated that while he saw several Fw-190s stall and even crash during dogfights, he never saw an Me-109 go out of control."

From "Through the eyes of the enemy" interview with Thomas L. Hayes, Jr., American P-51 ace, 357th Fighter Group, 8 1/2 victories.




Me 109 G-6: Edvald Estama disengaged after being damaged by a Yak-9's cannon shell by pushing into full power vertical dive from 7000 meters. "The speedometer went over the top as the speed exceeded 950 km/h (590 mph). The wings began to shake and I feared the fighter would come apart. It didn't stay (vertical) otherwise, it had to be kept with the stabilizer. I trimmed it so the plane was certainly nose down. Once I felt it didn't burn anymore and there was no black smoke in the mirror, then I began to straighten it up, and it wouldn't obey. The stick was so stiff it was useless. So a nudge at a time, (then straightening off with trims). Then the wings came alive with the flutter effect, I was afraid it's coming apart and shut the throttle. Only then I began to level out. To a thousand meters. It was a long time - and the hard pull blacked me out."

- Edvald Estama, Finnish fighter pilot.

[drgondog]

The only real direct comparisons we have are the anecdotal experiences of WWII pilots.


"My flight chased 12 109s south of Vienna. They climbed and we followed, unable to close on them. At 38,000 feet I fired a long burst at one of them from at least a 1000 yards, and saw some strikes. It rolled over and dived and I followed but soon reached compressibility with severe
buffeting of the tail and loss of elevator control. I slowed my plane and regained control, but the 109 got away.

On two other occasions ME 109s got away from me because the P 51d could not stay with them in a high-speed dive. At 525-550 mph the plane would start to porpoise uncontrollably and had to be slowed to regain control. The P 51 was redlined at 505 mph, meaning that this speed should not be exceeded. But when chasing 109s or 190s in a dive from 25-26,000 it often was exceeded, if you wanted to keep up with those enemy planes."

- Robert C.Curtis, American P-51 pilot.



"Thomas L. Hayes, Jr. recalled diving after a fleeing Me-109G until both aircraft neared the sound barrier and their controls locked. Both pilots took measures to slow down, but to Hayes' astonishment, the Me-109 was the first to pull out of its dive. As he belatedly regained control of his Mustang, Hayes was grateful that the German pilot chose to quit while he was ahead and fly home instead of taking advantage of Hayes' momentary helplessness. Hayes also stated that while he saw several Fw-190s stall and even crash during dogfights, he never saw an Me-109 go out of control."

From "Through the eyes of the enemy" interview with Thomas L. Hayes, Jr., American P-51 ace, 357th Fighter Group, 8 1/2 victories.




Me 109 G-6: Edvald Estama disengaged after being damaged by a Yak-9's cannon shell by pushing into full power vertical dive from 7000 meters. "The speedometer went over the top as the speed exceeded 950 km/h (590 mph). The wings began to shake and I feared the fighter would come apart. It didn't stay (vertical) otherwise, it had to be kept with the stabilizer. I trimmed it so the plane was certainly nose down. Once I felt it didn't burn anymore and there was no black smoke in the mirror, then I began to straighten it up, and it wouldn't obey. The stick was so stiff it was useless. So a nudge at a time, (then straightening off with trims). Then the wings came alive with the flutter effect, I was afraid it's coming apart and shut the throttle. Only then I began to level out. To a thousand meters. It was a long time - and the hard pull blacked me out."

- Edvald Estama, Finnish fighter pilot.

You probably need to parse at least the 2500+ 109 victories credited in 8th AF Encounter reports before offering anecdotal summaries. Tommy Hayes is one.  One of my father's encounter reports - july 28, 1944 east of Mulhausen cites the 109 that he was chasing as going out of control as he was shooting at it, as he chased it into the ground...another on Sept 11, 1944 (#1) as catching it in a dive as the 109 made a diving pass on a B-24 flight, closing and blowing it up. #2 was in the same flight, he caught it on the deck and shot it down, then chased #3 on the deck - all IV,/JG53 probably, SW Kassel near Giessen.

You comment regarding 'wing folding' in a dive needs further qualification as to root cause.  The didn't happen IN the dive, only when uplocks failed in the B model and the main gear crashed through the wheel door, extending gear and failing the wing... very uncommon and fixed with kits first and D permanently. While the placard stated NTE 505mph TAS, the bird was repeatedly tested between .8 and .85 M without loss, although the Brit test of the Mark IV at .85M cited the a/c as scrapped after the flight.

[drgondog]

failed to complete the circumstances for uplock failing - namely the high speed/high G Pullout, not the Q forces IN the dive.

[Karnak]

I seem to recall reading that 51Ds, at least initially, suffered a number of wing losses in flight.

[GScholz]

You probably need to parse at least the 2500+ 109 victories credited in 8th AF Encounter reports before offering anecdotal summaries.

True, however the 109 is clearly "in this race to the deck". That was the only point I wanted to make.

[Triton28]

I think the 38 can out dive all of them.  It just can't pull out of the dive.   

[Karnak]

I think the 38 can out dive all of them.  It just can't pull out of the dive.   

No, it is slower in the dive as well as not being able to pull out of it.

[Zacherof]

I learned something knew. Never knew the 109 could actually out dive a 51 or jug and pull out of that dive.

Learn something every day on here.