Steep descents

[Yankee67]

I have altitude on someone, and I choose a maneuver at merge that puts me in some steep angle of vertical descent, and I then rotate my lift vector in the direction I want to go.  (Which I think is the correct move.)

What's my move?  At very steep descents, do I cut power to control speed?  Do I slash through him at 400 mph?  Do I try to get into a pursuit path?  Does it depend on my ride?  Is a steep angle not a good move?

Also do the P-38's have a dive flap? I tried a high speed dive on someone and couldn't pull out.  400-something mph nose plant.  I looked it up on the internet, and later model P-38's were fitted with dive flaps.

 

[LCADolby]

P38L has dive recovery flaps.

Use the K key to also aid your recovery.

[gyrene81]

yeah, if you're hitting 400+ i a dive, you're going in too steep...and dive brakes won't do much for you in a nose down attitude. fly 109s for a while and you learn real quick not to do steep dives, 109s are great dirt missiles. i don't know what other people do but if i find myself picking up too much speed in a dive, i chop throttle and use the rudder to help manage the speed...you have to keep an eye on speed though because you can get too slow. and unless i'm dive bombing, i try not to ever come in steeper than 45 degrees.

[Owlblink]

I have altitude on someone, and I choose a maneuver at merge that puts me in some steep angle of vertical descent, and I then rotate my lift vector in the direction I want to go.  (Which I think is the correct move.)

What's my move?  At very steep descents, do I cut power to control speed?  Do I slash through him at 400 mph?  Do I try to get into a pursuit path?  Does it depend on my ride?  Is a steep angle not a good move?

The first point to make, and something that each of us had to learn, is that every fight is differet and air combat is an ever changing deck of cards, the same hand doesnt always give the same results. That being said:

In general, most tye time it is a bad idea to come from a steep angle to engage the enemy unless you have plenty of altitude below them to recover (a few thousand) and are certain you can hit them without them noticing.
Yhe term Slash attack, if i'm not mistaken, refers to coming in hot from somewhat below the target and then zooming past them, which is a better tactic for a numbe of reasons than diving in at a steap angle. Try diving down a little further out from the bandit, watch your throttle, especually in a 38 or a 109 to avoid control surface luckup from the never exceed speed (p38 is around 440-450 true air speed depending on your trim settings and dive angle). Then, go for an angle on the target that puts you around 30 degrees above, right a. Their alt, or 30 degrees below, this will get you started on nice BnZ approaches

[bozon]

As mentioned above, it is usually not a good idea to attack at a steep diving angle. This is a mistake that many new players do. After such an attack you either blow lots of E in the pull out, or end up running away (aka "extending" to infinity) at 500 mph - which may be desirable for some players, but I think it is stupid.

Having said that, sometime it is called for - perhaps trying to shoot a bad guy off of your squad mate, sometimes when attcking bombers from the top, and for some planes, even shallower angles can lead into trouble when starting from high speeds (P-38, Mossie, 109...). When you know your plane, you will be alert to your speed and be ready to step on the breaks before hitting the critical limit. In all planes the first thing you do is throttle back to min. If that is not enough, some planes have "gadgets" that can help them to maintain the speed or assist with the pullout:
- P-38 have the dive flaps. The dont slow you down much, but will prevent the elevator lock and will allow you to pull out of the dive. You have to engage them early enough because beyond a certain point even they won't help.
- P47D40 also have dive flaps.
- Mosquitoes can open the bay doors, but only if you had bombs inside before taking off (they dont have to still be in there, but if you took off with an empty bay you will get a message that says you do not have a bomb bay... go figure.)
- SBD has a very cool and effective dive break.
- F4Us can pull the gears out, but I dont remember what is the maximum allowed speed for that and if it is relevant at high speeds.

In all planes you still have controls that will help you maintain your speed and allow a pullout - rudder and elevator trim. At high speeds the rudder is progressively less effective at yawing the plane, but it does create a lot of drag. In 109s, mosquitoes, A20s... etc, I will often be riding the rudder while diving in order to prevent over speeding. Combat trim is a suicide device! if you use it, turn it off when diving either by using the toggle key, or by manually trimming which will cause it to toggle off. Trim nose up so you will have to keep pushing stick forward in order to stay in the dive - this way you know you can still pull out of it.

[Triton28]

I have altitude on someone, and I choose a maneuver at merge that puts me in some steep angle of vertical descent, and I then rotate my lift vector in the direction I want to go.  (Which I think is the correct move.)

  I think you're thinking about it the right way, yes.  Bear in mind that in most planes (38L being one exception) more speed means less roll rate, thus slowing your direction change and potentially destroying the plan you had on the merge. 

What's my move?  At very steep descents, do I cut power to control speed?  Do I slash through him at 400 mph?  Do I try to get into a pursuit path?  Does it depend on my ride?  Is a steep angle not a good move?

  Depends on what your next move will be and what you think his will be.  If you have tons more speed than the con, I would think a pursuit path would be a pretty bad idea as you're pretty likely to overshoot at some point given the speed differential.  In those situations, I usually try to stay fast and above the con while making BnZ passes in the hopes of draining his E and getting an easy kill.  The trick is to know when to commit, which is where I often screw it up.   
 

Also do the P-38's have a dive flap? I tried a high speed dive on someone and couldn't pull out.  400-something mph nose plant.  I looked it up on the internet, and later model P-38's were fitted with dive flaps.

Yep, she has a recovery flap, but don't count on it to save you.  If I remember correctly, you want to already have it deployed to stave off compression rather than popping it once things start to shake.  In general, it's better to not rely on the recovery flap.  If you must dive a 38 steeply, cut throttle (she picks up speed like there's no tomorrow in a dive anyway) and slip and skid your way down.  At most altitudes you'll remain in complete control.   

 

[Owlblink]

Quick note:
ONLY the 38L model has the recovery flaps.

I believe the landing gears on the F4U models can be extended up to 350MPH, but I could be off on that (it may be higher). They were historically used as brakes for helping the plane slow down for a carrier landing, not certain if they ever used them for diving though.

 

[Soulyss]

Just to follow up here on a couple things that some of the other posts have mentioned.  I'm not sure how long you've been playing but one thing you're going to discover is there is rarely (if ever) a blanket answer to a question that covers all the possible situations and variables.

Couple things that I try to measure when I'm making an attack.

1.  The angle of my flight path relative to the target, if I'm already more or less on his six than I will generally take a more direct line.  If he's 90's to me then I will generally plan on more of the pursuit curve, why hand him 90 degrees worth of angles right off the bat?

2.  Closing speed is more important than ground speed, ie how fast your going isn't as important as how fast you're going relative to your target.  You balance this with maintaining control of your own aircraft and keeping speed in a range where you can still maneuver if needed.  Managing closure rate is an important skill to learn, most defense counters to a high attack rely on building and exploiting excessive closure rate.

3.  Which direction does the attack take you relative to your friends and airfields (ie where the help is if you need it) and relative to the targets friends and airfields (where their help is).  In general, when possible attack perpendicular to the enemies most like avenue of reinforcements or better yet get him/her to move away from his/her help.   This last one can be summed up by saying SA is just as important when attacking as defending.

[Yankee67]

Thanks, everyone.  I'm on Day 9, and trying to learn.  I actually shot a plane down this afternoon (but got shot down myself right after that, so I don't think I get any credit).  I sense my biggest fault right now is poor energy management.  A lot of encounters I have consist of nothing more than me making an ever tightening sequence of yo-yo's, until I run out of speed and drop out of the sky. 

[Triton28]

Thanks, everyone.  I'm on Day 9, and trying to learn.  I actually shot a plane down this afternoon (but got shot down myself right after that, so I don't think I get any credit).  I sense my biggest fault right now is poor energy management.  A lot of encounters I have consist of nothing more than me making an ever tightening sequence of yo-yo's, until I run out of speed and drop out of the sky. 

From this thread alone I have a feeling you'll be just fine.   The biggest obstacle in getting better is knowing where you need to improve.   You seem to have a good handle on that.   

[BaldEagl]

I'm sure everyone else has mentioned these things already but every situation and every plane you're in is different and every combination of situation, the plane you're in and the plane you're attacking require different approaches.

As examples in a FW190A-8 you can safely dive at 600 mph and pull out.  It's going to shudder like hell but it's still flyable.  If you're just going to make a quick hit and run pass and try to regain your starting alt this might be what you want to do.

On the other hand the Bf109's don't like dive speed above 400-450 mph.  Here you're going to want to chop throttle and cross control (hard rudder with opposite aileron to "skid" the plane sideways through the air) to control dive speed.  Despite that if the dive is too steep you'll still overspeed and will need up aileron trim in order to pull out.

I use these two examples simply because I'm familiar with them and they are at opposite ends of the dive spectrum.

Then there's the situation.  Are you diving on a fast plane trying to run like a P-51?  You're going to want to maintain some speed to catch him so if you're in something slower you're going to have to push it's envelope or are you diving onto someone in a turny plane who's going to make a break turn and you want to saddle up on him?  In that case you're going to want to burn off as much E as needed to get to your best turn rate.

These things aren't easily learned.  There are so many variables that time and practice are the only way.

Remember this if nothing else; the steeper the dive the less control you have over your own plane and the situation you put yourself into. 

As with everything else it's best to learn the outer limits of your plane's (and your opponent's plane's) performance envelope then live within them.

[Owlblink]

Thanks, everyone.  I'm on Day 9, and trying to learn.  I actually shot a plane down this afternoon (but got shot down myself right after that, so I don't think I get any credit).  I sense my biggest fault right now is poor energy management.  A lot of encounters I have consist of nothing more than me making an ever tightening sequence of yo-yo's, until I run out of speed and drop out of the sky. 

Congrats on your kill! 

It's always nice to brake even (1/1 kill/death) so I think it counts 

Helpfull advise on doing high yo-yos and the like:
1) try not to pull more Gs than you need to. New pilots will sometimes find themselves yanking back on the stick as quick as they can to reverse around when sometimes all that will do for you is bleed your energy quicker.
2)Flap useage. Be careful, they bleed your E. Best advise i have recieved as a general rule is anytime you are nose high (like in a high yo-yo) you want your flaps UP to prevent exessive E loss. You can use flaps at the bottom of your reversal to help get your nose back up quicker if you end up in a rolling siccor or use flaps momentarly at te top to get your nose over, or to pull for a shot if you know you can make it.

[Mongoose]

  My two cents worth (and that's really just about all it's worth):

  Cut throttle at the start of the dive.  Sometimes I cut throttle well before the dive, to bleed off some speed first.  As I pull out, I hit full throttle just as I go horizontal, or just before.  If I time it just right, it helps pull me out of the dive.

  Of course, this is what I plan to do.  Too often I stay in the dive too long, and end up burying my airframe in the dirt.

[blkblade]

Conjugate gradients. Anyone?

[FLS]

I have altitude on someone, and I choose a maneuver at merge that puts me in some steep angle of vertical descent, and I then rotate my lift vector in the direction I want to go.  (Which I think is the correct move.)

What's my move?  At very steep descents, do I cut power to control speed?  Do I slash through him at 400 mph?  Do I try to get into a pursuit path?  Does it depend on my ride?  Is a steep angle not a good move?

Also do the P-38's have a dive flap? I tried a high speed dive on someone and couldn't pull out.  400-something mph nose plant.  I looked it up on the internet, and later model P-38's were fitted with dive flaps.

 

A spiral descent with throttle off can limit your speed gain because the lift you need for the spiral creates drag and the spiral path is less steep than a straight dive.