Vive la France?

[Karnak]

you're over generalizing a bit Karnak. just because a country couldn't stop the luftwaffe from controlling the air doesn't necessarily mean its military aircraft were "obsolete", superior numbers and trained pilots had a bigger impact. consider the iar.81c, top speed of 347mph vs the grumman f4f-4 top speed of 320mph, or the bf-109e-4 top speed of 348mph. hell, even the russians managed to hold off the germans mostly with numerical superiority. it's all relative.

I wasn't referring to the IAR.81c.  There are numerous aircraft that the extinct fish has listed that aren't competitive with anything, not even the I-16, that he says he wants so as to get broader representation.  The last Foker biplane fighter, for example, would add practically nothing to the game, but would take valuable dev resources away from things that do add something to the game, things that include the IAR.81c among others.

[Rich46yo]

Arlo I think this is an outstanding thread. At least for WW2 flight enthusiasts who play a WW2 flight game.

I enjoy reading about obscure air craft and thinking of "might have beens". Tho this story is why I want the Yak 3 so much. http://www.yak.ru/ENG/FIRM/HISTMOD/ww2/nn.php

[guncrasher]

Pre-1940 France/Post-1940 Vichy French/post-1944 France again

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Free French

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France was a member of the Triple Entente when World War I broke out. A small part of Northern France was occupied, but France and its allies eventually emerged victorious against the Central Powers, at a tremendous human and material cost: the First World War left 1.4 million French soldiers dead, 4.29% of its population,[54] between 27 and 30% of the conscript classes of 1912-1915.[55]

The interbellum years were marked by intense international tensions an a variety of social reforms introduced by the Popular Front government (Annual leave, working time reduction, women in Government among others). France was occupied following the German Blitzkrieg campaign in World War II, with metropolitan France divided into a German occupation zone in the north and Vichy France, a newly established authoritarian regime collaborating with Germany, in the south.[56] The Allies and the French Resistance eventually emerged victorious from the Axis powers and French sovereignty was restored.

The Fourth Republic was established after World War II and saw spectacular economic growth (les Trente Glorieuses). Suffrage was extended to women in 1944. France was one of the founding members of the NATO (1949), which was the Western counterpart of the Warsaw Pact system of collective defense.

Vichy France, officially The French State (l'État français), was France during the regime of Marshal Philippe Pétain, during World War II, from the German victory in the Battle of France (July 1940) to the Allied liberation in August 1944.[2] Following the defeat in June 1940, President Albert Lebrun appointed Marshal Pétain as Premier of France. After making peace with Germany, Pétain and his government voted to reorganize the discredited Third Republic into an authoritarian regime.

The newly-formed French State maintained nominal sovereignty over the whole of French territory as defined by the Second Armistice at Compiègne. However, Vichy maintained full sovereignty only in the unoccupied southern Zone libre ("free zone"), while retaining limited authority in the Wehrmacht-occupied northern zone, the Zone occupée ("occupied zone"). The occupation was to be a provisional state of affairs pending the conclusion of the war in the west, which at the time appeared imminent. In November 1942, however, the Zone libre was also occupied, with Germany closely supervising all French officials.

Marshal Pétain collaborated with the German occupying forces in exchange for an agreement not to divide France between the Axis powers. Germany kept two million French soldiers in Germany as forced labourers to enforce its term. Vichy authorities aided in the rounding-up of Jews and other "undesirables". At times in the colonies Vichy French military forces actively opposed the Allies. Despite its pro-Nazi policies, much of the French public initially supported the new government, seeing it as necessary to maintain a degree of French autonomy and territorial integrity.

The legitimacy of Vichy France and Pétain's leadership was constantly challenged by the exiled General Charles de Gaulle, based in London, who claimed to represent the legitimacy and continuity of the French nation. The overseas French colonies were originally under Vichy control, but it lost one after another to DeGaulle's Free French movement. Public opinion turned against the Vichy regime and the occupying German forces over time and resistance to them increased. Following the Allied invasion of France in June 1944, de Gaulle proclaimed the Provisional Government of the French Republic (GPRF).

Following France's liberation in summer 1944, most of the Vichy regime's leaders fled or were put on trial by the GPRF and a number were executed for treason. Thousands of collaborators were killed without trial by local Resistance forces. Pétain was sentenced to death for treason, but his sentence was commuted to life imprisonment. Only four senior Vichy officials were tried for crimes against humanity, although more were alleged to have participated in the deportation of Jews for extermination in concentration camps, abuses of prisoners and severe acts against members of the Resistance.

The Free French Forces were individuals or military units who joined "Free France", the resistance organization founded by Charles de Gaulle in 1940 in London in order to continue the struggle against the Axis powers.

De Gaulle, a French government minister who rejected the armistice concluded by Maréchal Philippe Pétain and who had escaped to Britain, exhorted the French to resist in his BBC broadcast "Appeal of 18 June" (Appel du 18 juin), which had a stirring effect on morale throughout France and its colonies, though initially relatively few French forces responded to De Gaulle's call.

The Free French fought Axis and Vichy troops, and served on battlefronts everywhere from the Middle East to Indochina and North Africa. The Free French Navy operated as an auxiliary force to the Royal Navy, and there were Free French units in the Royal Air Force, Soviet Air Force, and British SAS.

In November 1942, the Allies invaded Vichy-controlled French North Africa, and many Vichy troops joined the Free French, with General Henri Giraud at their head. This caused the Germans to occupy Vichy France, and in retaliation a Vichy force of 60,000 in North Africa joined the Allies.

By mid-1944, the Free French numbered more than 400,000, and they participated in the Normandy landings and the invasion of Southern France, eventually leading the drive on Paris. Soon they were fighting in Alsace, the Alps and Brittany, and by the end of the war in Europe, they were 1,300,000 strong - the fourth-largest Allied army in Europe - and took part in the Allied invasion of Germany.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/France   http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_French    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vichy_France

hey cool where did you get this info?


semp

[guncrasher]

List of aircraft of the Armée de l'Air, World War II (sans anything that isn't a non-float plane fighter or bomber)

Amiot

    Am.143 bomber
    Am.351 bomber
    Am.354 bomber

Arsenal

    VG-33 fighter

Blériot

    S.510 fighter

Bloch

    MB.131 reconnaissance and bomber/reconnaissance
    MB.150 series fighter (Bloch MB.150 to MB.157)
        MB.150 (prototype), 1936
        MB.151 first production design
        MB.152 increased power, (593 built by armistice)
    MB.162 long range heavy bomber
    MB.175 light bomber
    MB.200 medium bomber
    MB.210 medium bomber
   
Breguet

    Bre.XIX bomber
    Bre.482 heavy bomber
    Bre.691 light attack bomber
    Bre.693 light attack bomber
    Bre.695 light attack bomber

Caudron

    C.714 "Cyclone" fighter

Curtiss (American)

    H-75 fighter

Dewoitine

    D.500 fighter
    D.501 canon fighter
    D.510 fighter
    D.520 fighter

Douglas (American)

    DB-7 bomber

Farman/Société Nationale de Constructions Aéronautiques du Centre (SNCAC)

    F.222 heavy bomber
    NC.223 heavy bomber
   
Hanriot

    H.220 2 seat Fighter-bomber
    H.600 2 seat fighter

Koolhoven (Dutch)

    FK.58 fighter

Latécoère

    Laté.570 twin-engined medium bomber

Levasseur

    PL.10 torpedo bomber

Lioré et Olivier

    LeO.206 heavy night bomber
    LeO.451 medium bomber

Loire

    Loire 46 fighter

Loire-Nieuport

    LN.161 fighter

Martin (American)

    M.167-F bomber

Morane-Saulnier

    MS.225 fighter
    MS.406 fighter

Nieuport-Delage

    Ni-D.622 fighter

Potez

    Potez 542 bomber/reconnaissance
    Potez 63 series, twin-engine fighter, light bomber or reconnaissance (1200+ built)
        Potez 630 day/night fighter, (first 80 built;grounded)
        Potez 631 day/night fighter, (200+ built)
        Potez 633 light bomber, (many export variants)
Société nationale des constructions aéronautiques de l'ouest (SNCAO)

    CAO.200 fighter
    CAO.600 torpedo bomber

Société Nationale des Constructions Aéronautiques du Sud-Est (SNCASE)

    SE.100 twin engine fighter

and this one?


semp

[guncrasher]

Amiot 143

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Operational history

The Amiot 143M entered service in July 1935, with deliveries continuing in 1936 and 1937. About six were going to be delivered to the Spanish Republican Air Force at the beginning of the Spanish Civil War.[12] There is no evidence, however, that these obsolete French bombers flew over Spain during the Civil War.

By the time the last deliveries were made in March 1938, the Amiot was quite out of date and began to be replaced by modern aircraft such as the Bloch MB.131.[13] Nevertheless at the outbreak of the Second World War, Amiot 143s equipped 5 metropolitan groupes together with a single African based groupe.[14][6]

During the Phoney War, Amiot 143M groupes carried out reconnaissance and leaflet raids over Germany. 87 Amiot 143M remained in front line service on 10 May 1940, 50 equipping four metropolitan groupes: GBs I/34 and II/34 in the north, GBs I/38 and II/38 in the East and 17 equipping one African groupe, GB II/63, which was in the process of re-equipping with Martin 167Fs.[15] Following the start of the Battle of France, the Amiot 143M was mainly used in night attacks against German airfields and lines of communications, with losses relatively low.[16][17] One notable exception was a daylight raid by 10 Amiots from GBs I/34, II/34 and II/38 led by Commandant de Laubier against German bridgeheads near Sedan on 14 May 1940. Despite fighter escort, two Amiots were shot down while a third force-landed before reaching its base.[18]

By the Armistice, the Amiot 143M had dropped a total of 474 tonnes (523 tons) of bombs.[citation needed] 52 Amiot 143Ms were in the Unoccupied Zone and 25 were in French North Africa.[19] They were reorganized into GBs I/38 and II/38 and were used until July 1941 when they were replaced by LeO 451 bombers.

Some planes of II/38 served as a transports for the French in Syria. This groupe later went over to the Allies after their landings in Africa. The last Amiot 143M was retired from service in February 1944.

A few Amiot 143M are reported to have been commandeered by the Germans and used as transports. Only 11 were left in the Unoccupied Zone when it was occupied by the Germans in 1943 and only three were flightworthy.

Had the war gone on a little longer for France, it is likely that all of the Amiot 143M would have ended up in a training role, having been replaced by more modern bombers such as the Breguet 693. The obsolete plane was never intended to have such an important role come war time, but slow French production made its use necessary - often being pulled from training squadrons to shore up bomber groupes.

Performance

    Maximum speed: 295 km/h (159 knots, 183 mph) at 3,400 m (11,160 ft)
    Range: 1,300 km (703 nmi, 808 mi) (max bomb load)
    Ferry range: 1,995 km (1,078 nmi, 1,240 mi)
    Service ceiling: 7,500 m (24,605 ft)
    Climb to 2,000 m (6,560 ft): 6.8 min

Armament

    Guns: 4× 7.5 mm (.295 in) MAC 1934 machine guns (one each in nose and dorsal turrets, forward gondola and rear gondola)
    Bombs: 800 kg (1,760 lb) internally, 800 kg (1,760 lb) externally

^ a b Breffort and Jouneau 2004, p. 12.
^ Hugh Thomas, The Spanish Civil War; New revised edition (2011)
^ Air International December 1988, pp. 311–312.
^ Air International December 1988, p. 312.
^ Bénichou Le Fana de l'Aviation July 1997, p. 46.
^ Green 1967, p. 82.
^ Air International December 1988, p. 313.
^ Robineau, Lucien. "L’AVIATION DE BOMBARDEMENT FRANÇAISE EN MAI 1940". p.5. En souvenir du commandant de Laubier. January 2010. Retrieved 21 May 2011.
^ Bénichou Le Fana de l'Aviation July 1997, p. 52.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amiot_143

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and really dropped a total for 474 tons?  no wonder france was so well defended.

semp

[Arlo]

and really dropped a total for 474 tons?  no wonder france was so well defended.

semp

Guess there's not much of a case for a French plane set or marketing.

[Ack-Ack]

That is the problem with the guys asking for horribly obsolete aircraft to be added for minor countries who's air force lasted a day or two against the Luftwaffe (France isn't minor and I'd like to see some French aircraft) just to say that country is represented doesn't help the game and is a waste of valuable dev time.  I have nothing against adding aircraft that won't do very well, but there has to be more reason to do so than "It will give Holland representation."

I agree.  However, my reasoning for adding these early war planes is to widen the scenario options we have by having scenarios focusing on the early part of the war (pre-BoB), like the the air war during the invasion of France and the Lowlands, Spanish Civil War or the air war during the late '30s part of the 2nd Sino-Japanese War before Japan went to war with the West.

ack-ack

[guncrasher]

Guess there's not much of a case for a French plane set or marketing.

marketing what?   people dont join the game because they see a tank/airplane of their country.


semp

edit: one thing you may want to remember is that if you post a wish that is 7 or 8 pages long very few people are gonna bother to read it.  you could have made the post with a small paragraph for a few planes.  not copying  the full wikipedia story on each one.

[gyrene81]

marketing what?   people dont join the game because they see a tank/airplane of their country.


semp

you seem sure about that...didn't realize you worked in the marketing department at htc.

[Arlo]

marketing what?   people dont join the game because they see a tank/airplane of their country.


semp

Seems like you almost think you're still arguing with me. Or maybe not. (Say 'not'.) 

[guncrasher]

you seem sure about that...didn't realize you worked in the marketing department at htc.

well based on the fact that we have japanese airplanes but we dont have hundreds of japanese players.  we have german airplanes and we dont have hundreds of german players.  same for the british you think the player population would be more.  how many russians?

semp

[gyrene81]

well based on the fact that we have japanese airplanes but we dont have hundreds of japanese players.  we have german airplanes and we dont have hundreds of german players.  same for the british you think the player population would be more.  how many russians?

semp

aaahhh...ignorance is bliss. the reasons that there aren't more people signed up right now is less to do with the plane models than the reasons people sign up in the first place.

[bustr]

Arlo,

Out of your total list the D.520 for the majority of players who enjoy ww2 aircraft, will be the only one with any meaning or name recognition. Aside from the MS 406 and Curtiss Hawk. Honestly the rest look like wonderful death traps.

As for say the Spanish Civil War. Here is a link to the mélange of aircraft that took part in colorful profiles. Many took part in only onesi-twosies, basically WWI round II. Except where the Germans, Italians and Russians were concerned. If HTC created a SCW dedicated arena with all of the planes that took part, including some from your French list. It would be predominantly everyone flying Bf109 HOing everyone else. Scenarios, chances are the CM would have to bribe players to be on the non-109 side.

List ===>>  http://www.zi.ku.dk/personal/drnash/model/spain/did.html

I have a unique slant on flying dog garbage rides. Waystin is a CM for the AvA. When he askes me to come fly for him on Thursday's, it also means exclusively flying the dog garbage ride side. I often spend 3-5 minutes at a time that feel like 3 hours being hammered by up to 5 heros in the uber ride from the other side. Keeps them entertained and feet passing through the AvA. Problem is, just as often as those are LWMA weenies, it's LWMA vets who could beat the weenies in the same dog garbage ride I agreed to be stuck in.

No body wants to be the last fat kid left on the court in a game of slaughter ball. Everyone wants to be chosen by the "Cool Kids" side for the easy ride.



 

[Arlo]

I'm not advocating nor am I promoting a French plane set for AHII. 

[Arlo]

On a seperate note, I really like the I-16.