Author Topic: F22 vs Rafale dogfight video  (Read 1059 times)

Offline smoe

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Re: F22 vs Rafale dogfight video
« Reply #15 on: June 19, 2013, 10:17:28 AM »
Heck, lasers are the future. You only need to take out a pilot's eyes (or other combatant) and he is done for. If a large war were to start you can bet both sides will resort to whatever works. Lasers would be very nasty.

Offline titanic3

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Re: F22 vs Rafale dogfight video
« Reply #16 on: June 19, 2013, 10:57:14 AM »
Heck, lasers are the future. You only need to take out a pilot's eyes (or other combatant) and he is done for. If a large war were to start you can bet our side will resort to whatever works. Lasers would be very nasty.

Unless we somehow get into a war with China or Russia...which is...doubtful. Even then I don't think any other country possess laser technology.

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semp

Offline bozon

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Re: F22 vs Rafale dogfight video
« Reply #17 on: June 19, 2013, 01:11:31 PM »
If you get into these arguments with amateurs like me and you on the internet, you can go round and round forever based on opinions that are likewise read on the internet.  If I'm told something by people who actually do it for a living, and have been instructors at the best schools on the planet for doing it, I take their word over anyone else.  Do you know anybody who has flown the Typhoon and been involved in it since the beginning, and heard their opinion on how it stacks up versus American stealth fighters?  I'll gladly PM you the pilot's names if you wish, I graduated from school with one, having grown up with him since I was 4, and met the other 2 through him, and he's currently a Major in the RCAF and has over 2500 hours in the Hornet, 300+ of that combat time, and will be the RCAF test pilot for the F35 as well, and is currently in the USA flying it right now.
Why do you assume I am an amateur? no I am not a pilot, but let me tell you this, many pilots are highly over confident in their equipment and believe the specs written on the wrapping of their missiles, or the "I heard a beep in my headphones therefore I shot you down". How many of them fired a missile at a real opponent, and no, the Iraqi air force is not a real opponent, I mean a modern one.

None of which are as effective as stealth.  If you use electronic jamming all you are doing is allowing the F-22 to either fire an AIM-120 at you with its radar off and when it gets close enough the AMRAAM switches on and can burn through the jamming rendering the Typhoon dead.  Or the F-22 uses its passive radar mode and soaks in the incoming electronic signals can maneuver around the front end of the Typhoon and it's radar and press from the side and when it gets close enough burn through the jamming with its own much more powerful radar or again fire a missile.
nice couch theory.
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Offline GScholz

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Re: F22 vs Rafale dogfight video
« Reply #18 on: June 19, 2013, 03:48:59 PM »
Some of these 4.5 gen double-deltas probably can out turn the F-22 and F-35, but it is of limited value in a war situation. If I had to go to war in a non-stealth I'd want a speed-bird like the F-15 or MiG-25/31 that can get the hell out if the situation becomes messy. Turning is something you have to do when you've lost the BVR battle.
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Offline uptown

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Re: F22 vs Rafale dogfight video
« Reply #19 on: June 19, 2013, 04:19:29 PM »
Awesome! So in other words the United States has a thrust vectoring overpriced spaceship that's just as good but no better than a plain ole jet fighter.  :rolleyes: I want a refund!  :furious
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Offline bozon

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Re: F22 vs Rafale dogfight video
« Reply #20 on: June 19, 2013, 05:32:08 PM »
Awesome! So in other words the United States has a thrust vectoring overpriced spaceship that's just as good but no better than a plain ole jet fighter.  :rolleyes: I want a refund!  :furious
No, it IS better but only marginally so. Which systems are installed in the planes, which weapons, and of course the training of the pilots makes more difference than the thrust vectoring or the quasi stealth. It is better because its got the latest gizmos in it, but most of these systems and weapons could have been installed (some are already) on previous gen fighters. Remember that the cash pool is limited. If the platform costs too much its means less money for systems and training. Is F22 worth its price tag? I do not have the numbers to form a solid opinion.
Mosquito VI - twice the spitfire, four times the ENY.

Click!>> "So, you want to fly the wooden wonder" - <<click!
the almost incomplete and not entirely inaccurate guide to the AH Mosquito.
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Offline Gman

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Re: F22 vs Rafale dogfight video
« Reply #21 on: June 19, 2013, 06:18:49 PM »
It was a Serb Mig 29 first of all, not an Iraqi Mig 29.

In what field of military aviation do you work if you're not a pilot Bozon?

Your point about pilots being overconfident is ridiculous, as the argument I was making was the opposite.  The pilot I know never flew the F22, only against it, many times, and lost to it, many times, in one of the best aircraft out there.  He also worked for the companies building the Typhoon, the only Canadian pilot who has flown it more than just a single hop, with well over 300 hours of flight time during its development and squadron testing.  He's obviously intimately familiar with how the radar and MFD systems work, as that was his primary job.  It works fantastically according to him, its the best non stealth fighter in the world hands down in his opinion.  Also in his opinion, based on his experience fighting against stealth aircraft during major exercises, every fighter other than the F22 and F35 have a massive disadvantage in combat other than visual range fights, again, due to their stealth and systems.

If you have information from other people or sources, not just "I think it's this way, so there", post it up.  You alluded that you're in the business in some non flying capacity, so why not just say so, and put forward what you know in order to convince me that 6500 hours of flight time in modern gen 4.5 fighters is wrong.

Offline ACE

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Re: F22 vs Rafale dogfight video
« Reply #22 on: June 19, 2013, 07:07:56 PM »
Pretty cool.
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Offline RedBull1

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Re: F22 vs Rafale dogfight video
« Reply #23 on: June 19, 2013, 07:24:47 PM »
I'd like to hear Eagl's input on the Raptor!
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Offline Gman

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Re: F22 vs Rafale dogfight video
« Reply #24 on: June 19, 2013, 07:50:42 PM »
If you do a search you get the phone book, but I have a lot of Eagl and Mace's post regarding modern fighters, stealth, and air combat linked in one of my other PC's, I'll see if I can transfer them over and put them in the post.  Or maybe we'll get lucky and they'll post in here again.  I'm sure they're probably sick of doing it by now, as this same thing comes up every 6 months or so with the regularity of a sine wave.

Offline xNOVAx

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Re: F22 vs Rafale dogfight video
« Reply #25 on: June 19, 2013, 08:14:37 PM »
Heck, lasers are the future. You only need to take out a pilot's eyes (or other combatant) and he is done for. If a large war were to start you can bet both sides will resort to whatever works. Lasers would be very nasty.

There are treaties against lasers being used to blind soldiers.. That's right up there with chemical warfare.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Convention_on_Certain_Conventional_Weapons#Protocol_IV:_Blinding_Laser_Weapons


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Offline titanic3

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Re: F22 vs Rafale dogfight video
« Reply #26 on: June 19, 2013, 08:21:15 PM »
There are treaties against lasers being used to blind soldiers.. That's right up there with chemical warfare.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Convention_on_Certain_Conventional_Weapons#Protocol_IV:_Blinding_Laser_Weapons

Like a piece of written paper is going to mean anything when the poop hits the fan.

  the game is concentrated on combat, not on shaking the screen.

semp

Offline curry1

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Re: F22 vs Rafale dogfight video
« Reply #27 on: June 19, 2013, 09:46:01 PM »
Like a piece of written paper is going to mean anything when the poop hits the fan.

During Vietnam SAM batteries used a purely passive visual mode to fire missiles at American aircraft.  The observer had an optic they had to keep on the aircraft and the missile followed the direct line the only electronic signal that could be picked up would be the missile talking to the transmitter making sure it was in fact following the correct line.  That small signal as of yet was impossible for the current generation of missile warning sensors to detect.  This meant Americans would have to either see the missile coming at them or be blown from the sky.  After Vietnam the Air Force developed a laser system that can detect these optics fire and burn the optic and whomever's eye behind it.  Now I have no idea how this tech works it's classified but my father told me about it as he was one of the Air Force engineers on the project.
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Offline curry1

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Re: F22 vs Rafale dogfight video
« Reply #28 on: June 19, 2013, 09:59:17 PM »
nice couch theory.

Well instead of telling me off explain why my theory is wrong?  Obviously I am not an Air Force Planning and Programming Officer but I do have enough knowledge to make a conjecture and to expect a intelligent response.
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Offline eagl

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Re: F22 vs Rafale dogfight video
« Reply #29 on: June 20, 2013, 12:08:17 AM »
I've seen nothing, including that video, that would lead me to conclude anything other than the F-22 is the finest air to air fighter in the world, in pretty much every category and situation.

The closest comparison I can come up with, regarding F-22 vs. Rafale, is my experiences flying the F-15E vs. the F-16.  When in a "fair" fight starting BVR, the F-16s had great ideas plans and tactics to get close enough to force a visual engagement, but they never really expected to get to the merge if we didn't make a pretty big mistake.  Nothing against the F-16 at that point, but the F-15E has more missiles and a significantly better radar.  And there are other F-15 specific systems that gave the Eagle an advantage, BVR.  We had to foul up to lose, basically. 

Even then, if we did have to go to the merge, we have tactics designed to ensure that an Eagle wouldn't end up 1v1 against a viper, because it would likely lose.  That said, on occasion a well flown eagle would surprise a poorly flown viper and get a BFM kill, even 1v1.

For that video, I suspect that the F-22 driver was having a bad day or as the unnamed source claims, it had some sort of configuration limitation.  We'll never know, the hud video isn't really that clear.  But I HAVE seen a well flown F-15C spank a reasonably well flown F-16 4 out of 5 tries, because at some point pilot skill really does play a huge part.  Hell, for that matter, this one guy with 5000 hrs in an F-5 flying for the Bahraini Air Force gave us absolute fits even 2v1, because he was THAT GOOD and the environmentals (slightly hazy day) made his tiny plane disappear every time he pointed his nose at us.  BVR he would have no chance, and on paper he should have little chance in BFM, but he was an outstanding pilot and took every advantage and as a new guy with 200 hrs in the plane I simply couldn't deal with it in a timely fashion.  Yea we "won" in the sense that he couldn't kill either of us before he ran out of gas, but we couldn't kill him either, not within our training ROE anyhow.

Same goes for a C-130 I played with for an hour...  He wanted to practice some defensive reactions, and his aircraft defensive systems and defensive maneuvering lowered the Pk on every one of my 8 missile shots.  Then he went to 500' AGL and I couldn't gun him without violating low altitude training rules.  So yea, a C-130 "won" the training BFM engagement against an F-15E.  In RL, who knows.  But he made every one of my missile shots unassessable or invalid in a training environment, and his maneuvering made it impossible to get a gun shot without violating one or more training rules.

Like the one time I, all alone, managed to bounce 11 F-16s who never saw me coming.  I came in at 500' behind a ridgeline and did an immelman right into the middle of their formation.  I popped one during the climb, but could only get tally on 11 of them.  During the briefing I was told there would be 12 of them, so after the merge I was "trapped" in my altitude block, unable to maneuver to make further kills.  I counted 11 bandits three more times before about 6 of them cleared off their missile rails at me :) It turned out the 12th guy ground aborted and never took off, but I didn't know that so I was handcuffed by the training rules.  So 1 eagle "beat" 11 F-16s at the merge by jumping them completely unaware, but they shot me to shreds due to a safety related training restriction. 

The point is that we don't know why that rafale was able to maintain the offensive on the F-22 but what I know of all modern fighters tells me that the F-22 is superior in pretty much all areas.  The Rafale and Eurofighter are both fine aircraft, don't get me wrong.  But the F-22 has all that, plus stealth...
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