Author Topic: Crossing Snapshots  (Read 1614 times)

Offline Myg

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Re: Crossing Snapshots
« Reply #15 on: June 16, 2013, 05:48:49 AM »
Latrobe there are two ways to use the mk108, actively or passively.

Actively means you are going to pursue a firing solution for the gun separate to your plane's current trajectory given a manouvering delta border for the AoA between the two; current and next AoA and breaking that.

Passively means you are going to pursue a firing solution for the plane as if the 108 is jousting pole or skewer at the end of your nose.

You will find the aces always use the latter unless they really want you dead, in that case they will use the former and jink around like a mad one behind you for the shot.

What you are talking about Latrobe is wanting to perform the latter, and similar to ramming someone, its more of a matter of the other person flying into your cone then you making them fly into yours.

If you get the subtle mental difference.

"To try to do something means you will generally miss, to not try to do something means you wont".

The 108 is the only real gun in the game that pronounces this type of shooting because its high rate of fire and 1 shot kill capacity (against most fighters). Which give mk108 users a sense of confidence that everyone else does not.







« Last Edit: June 16, 2013, 05:51:43 AM by Myg »

Offline Latrobe

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Re: Crossing Snapshots
« Reply #16 on: June 16, 2013, 05:59:33 AM »
Latrobe there are two ways to use the mk108, actively or passively.

Actively means you are going to pursue a firing solution for the gun separate to your plane's current trajectory given a quota of manouvering delta for the AoA between the two; current and next AoA.

Passively means you are going to pursue a firing solution for the plane as if the 108 is jousting pole or skewer at the end of your nose.

You will find the aces always use the latter unless they really want you dead, in that case they will use the former and jink around like a mad one behind you for the shot.

What you are talking about Latrobe is wanting to perform the latter, and similar to ramming someone, its more of a matter of the other person flying into your cone then you making them fly into yours.

If you get the subtle mental difference.

"To try to do something means you will generally miss, to not try to do something means you wont".

The 108 is the only real gun in the game that pronounces this type of shooting because its high rate of fire and 1 shot kill capacity (against most fighters). Which give mk108 users a sense of confidence that everyone else does not.









I understand all of this. My problem is I line up my "jousting pole" so that they are going to fly into my cone, but I end up missing because as they pass through my gunsight my tracers either pass just over them (over their wing since they're turning into me), or my tracers go just below them (past the other wing), or I actually get it lined up right but the 30's just don't connect (I think it's either the 30's passing just infront of them and then the next shot passes just behind them, or the 30's are taking too long to get there and they've already passed through the bullet stream). I'm wondering if there's some sort of technique that the tater aces use to ensure that they are on the right line up, or if it's just a matter of having good eye sight for flight paths.

Offline Myg

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Re: Crossing Snapshots
« Reply #17 on: June 16, 2013, 06:04:16 AM »
... it's just a matter of having good eye sight for flight paths.

Is the foundation of the above shooting principle of course, is what I mean.

Which is why although the aces will know most moves, if you present them with a move not in their known vocab, they miss every time.
« Last Edit: June 16, 2013, 06:07:29 AM by Myg »

Offline bustr

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Re: Crossing Snapshots
« Reply #18 on: June 17, 2013, 04:53:44 PM »
Lathrobe,

Offline fill all six drone slots with I16. Using only single taps, attack them from every conceivable angle and them some. Do this for 15 minutes every day prior to logging into the MA. The MK108's timing is completely different than the other auto cannon you shoot with. The I16 is so tiny you will be forced into a timing that will place rounds dead center of the normal rides in the MA. 200 and inside your aim point is about 6Mil low of center. 400 its about 12Mil low. lead is the bugger.

Like I said earlier, 350 will give you the flattest trajectory to 400 in relationship to the LoS that Hitech has programmatically setup in the game.

You can test this offline with the target. Remember that the red horizontal center line is the center line of your aircraft.

Set the K4 to auto level at 312 IA. This will level the cannon barrel to zero. Then shoot at 100, 150, 200, 250, 300, 350, 400 with the MK108 only. Make notes of the relationship between the center of your gunsight and the IP blob center. When you are finished, compare the trajectory of the rounds to the gunsight center as a trajectory graph. You will find before reaching 350, the trajectory passes high to drop into 350. Then almost the same amount low hitting 400.

Just remember this trajectory is not passing high of your aircraft. It's just passing high of your LoS which is angled down to account for having a cannon mounted into your engine. After all of these years, I've come to accept the less than 1 degree tilt Hitech allows through the engine block with the german auto cannons with his convergence program.

In real life they were bolted inline to the engine to bisect the prop plane at 90 degrees through a hollow tube set parallel with the engine crankshaft. Can't have a tiny grenade setting itself off in the blast tube. In flight at combat speeds in our game the dispersion and variable AoA at different alt and speeds blurs the small amount of convergence tilt Hitech allows.

I'm thinking of revisiting Yak gun mountings in the Kilmov engine. The mounting is taken directly form the  Hispano-Suiza 12Y, Hispano-Suiza 404  20mm mounting solution. The cannon is bolted down to the top of the block between the cylinders with locking mounts. Not like the Dalmer-Benz, inserted from behind through a pre set hollow tube into the engine. From looking at a Hiss12Y from the front with a cannon mounted to it. There is enough clearance room in the reduction gear pass through to adjust almost a 1/2 degree across 360 because the reduction gear housing is mounted to the front of the block independent of the HS-404 mounting solution. Looks a lot like the arrangement in the P39.

I found a Russian reference to the Yak's 20mm being set to 200 in relationship to a sighting mark on the back of the prop that the pilot was supposed to eyeball his PBP\PBK reticle center against. I can concede the P39, Yak, D.520 had adjustable harmonization for an IP point now after what I have found. The reality of the tolerances involved makes a 200yd IP probably what was set and locked for the combat life of the aircraft's engine or the gun barrel. I suppose the NS-37 it was a miracle just to get that monster mounted to that tiny engine.
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Offline MickDono

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Re: Crossing Snapshots
« Reply #19 on: June 21, 2013, 06:27:58 AM »

Offline bustr

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Re: Crossing Snapshots
« Reply #20 on: June 21, 2013, 06:19:26 PM »
Grizz's thread:

http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,280043.0.html

In simple English. Lead timing with the tater is based on spans of the canopy bars which is the core of Grizz's post.

Not many of you guys read manuals then..........
bustr - POTW 1st Wing


This is like the old joke that voters are harsher to their beer brewer if he has an outage, than their politicians after raising their taxes. Death and taxes are certain but, fun and sex is only now.

Offline Latrobe

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Re: Crossing Snapshots
« Reply #21 on: June 22, 2013, 11:40:14 AM »
I just can not figure this gun out. I tried grizz's way, I've tested convergences offline, shot at drones, and yet there is still something about the mk108 that just doesn't work for me. Some days I'm hitting crossing shots and pulling lead for kills at 400 icon range or more. Then other days I'm doing the exact same things, setting up shots the same way and pulling the same lead, and the 30mms just don't feel like hitting anything! This gun really is just the most unreliable thing I've ever used. I wish I could swap it out for the 20mm 151/20.

Offline Lusche

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Re: Crossing Snapshots
« Reply #22 on: June 22, 2013, 11:44:12 AM »
This gun really is just the most unreliable thing I've ever used. I wish I could swap it out for the 20mm 151/20.

In the G-14, you can  ;)
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Offline MickDono

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Re: Crossing Snapshots
« Reply #23 on: June 22, 2013, 12:08:07 PM »
I started shooting with twice the lead and found that helped ALOT!  Even holding the trigger down for a fraction longer to start with

Offline Latrobe

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Re: Crossing Snapshots
« Reply #24 on: June 22, 2013, 12:13:30 PM »
In the G-14, you can  ;)

I love my G14 soooo much! I even love my Emil more than my K4 too!

Offline bustr

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Re: Crossing Snapshots
« Reply #25 on: June 22, 2013, 02:31:43 PM »
I always looked at the Mk108 and it's unique ballistics properties as a canary to the quality of the Internet when I pulled the trigger made visible by the game code in my monitor.

Some days you can close your eyes and hit anything at 400.

Some days you can't even kill shoot yourself on a friend parked 100 feet away.

Then you always seem to hit something with a 20mm regardless of the internet's quality. Or even a 13mm.
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This is like the old joke that voters are harsher to their beer brewer if he has an outage, than their politicians after raising their taxes. Death and taxes are certain but, fun and sex is only now.

Offline Zacherof

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Re: Crossing Snapshots
« Reply #26 on: June 22, 2013, 07:35:43 PM »
As I told buster, I take everythig I see as mental mesurments in planes lenthgs.



My much prefered method is move in close(200 is the most desirable) and and chop throttle a bit, and fire single rounds. 
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