Steuerknüppel KG 12-13 Button Firing Order

[bustr]

The Bf109 and FW190A control column in our game are programmed incorrectly for their firing order if the 109 has wing pods or the FW190 has outer wing cannon MGFF, MG 151\20 or MK108. In the case of BF109 with no wing pods, and MG, Fw190A\D no wing cannon and the Ta152. The ability to fire either or both together is correct.

BF109 with wing pod cannons Steuerknüppel button wiring.

A-Knopf: 2x MG 131 (fuselage mounted) and 1x MG 151 (engine mounted)
B1-Knopf: 2x MG 151 (in wing pods)
B2-Knopf: drop ordnance

FW190A with outer wing cannons MGFF, MG 151\20 or MK108 Steuerknüppel button wiring.

A-Knopf: 2x MG 151 (wing-root mounted), [only if installed: 2x MG (fuselage mounted)]
B1-Knopf: [only if installed: 2x cannons (wing mounted)]
B2-Knopf: drop ordnance
-------------------------------------

The requested game change for Bf109 with wing pods and FW190A with wing cannon firing selections should be:

Bf109

1. - Motor cannon and MG slaved together.
2. - Wing pods alone.
3. - All three together.

FW190A

1. - Wing root cannon and MG slaved together.
2. - Wing cannon MGFF, MG 151\20, MK108 fires alone.
3. - All three together.
-------------------------------------

If the Bf109-G6 with MK108 motor cannon and wing pod is ever introduced again.

Bf 109 G-6 with Rüstsatz R6 (two wing-mounted MG 151 cannons):

A-Knopf: 2x MG 131 (fuselage mounted) and 2x MG 151 (in wing pods)
B1-Knopf: 1x MK 108 (engine mounted)
B2-Knopf: drop ordnance

The ballistics of the MK108 caused G6 pilots to request the MK108 set to it's own switch and the MG and wing pod slaved together. In the case of all of these 109 and 190 wing gun configurations, all guns could be fired by holding down on the A-Knopf trigger paddle and the top B1-Knopf button at the same time in a "Fire All" effect.

Considering the difference in ballistics and time to target of MK108 rounds to all others. It may be to the advantage of the player in the game to fire the wing MK108 independent of other guns in the FW190-A8 for aiming purposes to better insure rounds on air to air targets. While a "Fire All" mode would be beneficial for ground attack.

[morfiend]

 


   I couldn't agree more! I also think the 410 needs the same treatment,according to the manuals a maximum of 4 guns could be armed do to battery concerns.

  Bustr,do you have any imfo on the trigger setups for the 410? I've been looking at my material and I cant find anything specific.



   

[gyrene81]

i have a book for the 109-g6/u4 that shows shows this. (it was desined to be rewired fairly quickly)

A-Knopf: 2x MG 131 (fuselage mounted)
B1-Knopf: 1x MK 108 (engine mounted)
B2-Knopf: drop ordnance

A-Knopf: 2x MG 131 (fuselage mounted) and 1x MK 108 (engine mounted)
B1-Knopf: 2x MG 151 (in wing pods)
B2-Knopf: drop ordnance

A-Knopf: 2x MG 131 (fuselage mounted) and 2x MG 151 (in wing pods)
B1-Knopf: 1x MK 108 (engine mounted)
B2-Knopf: drop ordnance


the straight up g2, g6 and g14 should all have the same firing controls...i'll have to double check.

[Zacherof]

Yes please!
Especially for the MK108 on the A8. 
 

[bustr]

i have a book for the 109-g6/u4 that shows shows this. (it was desined to be rewired fairly quickly)

A-Knopf: 2x MG 131 (fuselage mounted)
B1-Knopf: 1x MK 108 (engine mounted)
B2-Knopf: drop ordnance

A-Knopf: 2x MG 131 (fuselage mounted) and 1x MK 108 (engine mounted)
B1-Knopf: 2x MG 151 (in wing pods)
B2-Knopf: drop ordnance

A-Knopf: 2x MG 131 (fuselage mounted) and 2x MG 151 (in wing pods)
B1-Knopf: 1x MK 108 (engine mounted)
B2-Knopf: drop ordnance


the straight up g2, g6 and g14 should all have the same firing controls...i'll have to double check.

There was an added note to:

L. Dv. T. 2109 G-6/U4/Wa. "Bf 109 G-6/U4. Schusswaffenanlage. Bedienungsvorschrift/Wa. (Stand Juli 1943) Ausgabe August 1943."

It changed the firing order per pilot combat feed back to slave the MG 131 and wing pod MG 151\20 while placing the MK108 and B1-Knopf by itself.

Revised scheme: Bf 109 G-6 with Rüstsatz R6 (two wing-mounted MG 151 cannons):
A-Knopf: 2x MG 131 (fuselage mounted) and 2x MG 151 (in wing pods)
B1-Knopf: 1x MK 108 (engine mounted)
B2-Knopf: drop ordnance

The MK108 trajectory, and rounds carried made it not conducive to a harmonizing scheme with the MG\cannon. It was best utilized alone as a single or ganged due to this. Lead and elevation for the MK108 was completely different than lead for the MG\cannon.   

[gyrene81]

considering the buttons could be re-wired there is no reason to change the base 109 firing order as it sits. with the gun pods it probably should be cowl and hub cannon slaved together.

[bustr]

Morfeind,

Me410 Knüppelgriff KG 13B
4-MG151\20, 2-MK103, BK5 were bound to B1-Knopf.

That leaves the base MG and MG 151\20 bound to A-Knopf. B1-Knopf off the switch block was the accessory weapon kit fire button. As for firing limitations based on the battery power. From what I can see in the circuit diagram its a common 10v system. With the 109 and 190 series diagrams showing 10v common systems. There were warnings with 190's about arming order so as not to blow out the circuits by arming the wing cannon too soon after the MG and root cannons.

Me410 Knüppelgriff KG 13B based on the circuit blocks from the manuals.

A-Knopf: 2x MG 131 (fuselage mounted), 2x MG 151\20(fuselage mounted)
B1-Knopf: 4-MG151\20, 2-MK103, BK5
B2-Knopf: drop ordnance
-------------------------------

Gyrene,

Pilot combat feed back was convincing enough to dictate an update to the G6 manual to combine the MG131 and MG 151\20 pods on A-Knopf with the MK108 set to fire alone on B1-Knopf. Pilots would have wanted it the same in the G14 from experience since they were betting the farm on it. All that has to happen is the MK108 in the G14 with pods becomes a fire alone single button while the MG and cannon pods ganged to another button. "Fire All" still unloads the full monti. The 4-MG 151\20 and 2-MK103 in the 410 can be dealt with in the same manner. The manuals do not show the option to fire the MG unslaved on the A=Knopf unless wing pods or wing cannon were not installed.

[gyrene81]

Gyrene,

Pilot combat feed back was convincing enough to dictate an update to the G6 manual to combine the MG131 and MG 151\20 pods on A-Knopf with the MK108 set to fire alone on B1-Knopf. Pilots would have wanted it the same in the G14 from experience since they were betting the farm on it. All that has to happen is the MK108 in the G14 with pods becomes a fire alone single button while the MG and cannon pods ganged to another button. "Fire All" still unloads the full monti. The 4-MG 151\20 and 2-MK103 in the 410 can be dealt with in the same manner. The manuals do not show the option to fire the MG unslaved on the A=Knopf unless wing pods or wing cannon were not installed.

that was with the mk108, what about the mg151/20 hub cannon? that doesn't fit your op change request...

[morfiend]

Morfeind,

Me410 Knüppelgriff KG 13B
4-MG151\20, 2-MK103, BK5 were bound to B1-Knopf.

That leaves the base MG and MG 151\20 bound to A-Knopf. B1-Knopf off the switch block was the accessory weapon kit fire button. As for firing limitations based on the battery power. From what I can see in the circuit diagram its a common 10v system. With the 109 and 190 series diagrams showing 10v common systems. There were warnings with 190's about arming order so as not to blow out the circuits by arming the wing cannon too soon after the MG and root cannons.

Me410 Knüppelgriff KG 13B based on the circuit blocks from the manuals.

A-Knopf: 2x MG 131 (fuselage mounted), 2x MG 151\20(fuselage mounted)
B1-Knopf: 4-MG151\20, 2-MK103, BK5
B2-Knopf: drop ordnance
-------------------------------

Gyrene,

Pilot combat feed back was convincing enough to dictate an update to the G6 manual to combine the MG131 and MG 151\20 pods on A-Knopf with the MK108 set to fire alone on B1-Knopf. Pilots would have wanted it the same in the G14 from experience since they were betting the farm on it. All that has to happen is the MK108 in the G14 with pods becomes a fire alone single button while the MG and cannon pods ganged to another button. "Fire All" still unloads the full monti. The 4-MG 151\20 and 2-MK103 in the 410 can be dealt with in the same manner. The manuals do not show the option to fire the MG unslaved on the A=Knopf unless wing pods or wing cannon were not installed.

  TY.

    Was as I expected but I couldn't confirm it

  I had read about the 3 second wait to arm secondary equipment,they said the drain on the battery was enough to pop the circuts so the pilots were warned to wait until the primary weapons were armed and a 3 second time elapse.

  Would really be nice to see this implemented.



   

[bustr]

It was left alone for the same reasons the pilots feedback caused the change to slaving the 13mm and 20mm pods to A-Knopf separated from the Mk108.

In the 20mm\13mm with 20mm pods, the 20\13 were slaved to A-Knopf while the pods were to B1-Knopf.

With 20\13 and 20mm pods the Revi LoS is set down 200cm to the motor cannon at 400m. With the 13mm set to 200cm against the Revi LoS at 400m and the 20mm pods set to 280cm at 500m.

In the same setup with the Mk108 as the motor cannon. The Revi LoS set down 336cm to 400m with the Mk108 and MG makes for having to raise the nose higher than with the 20mm motor cannon. This caused having the 20mm pods to be set to cross and drop 480cm at 500m which created a long distance vertical separation in harmonization.

Slaving the MG and pods together on A-Knopf would require a single harmonization for those two while knowing how to use the Revi reticle to adjust for aiming the MK108. Without pods, the 13mm MG and MK108 are separated on the Knüppelgriff to A-Knopf and B1-Knopf. I have yet to find a harmonization diagram for only the 13mm and MK108 alone. I've also read that one CO would only use his K4 to shoot bombers and took up a G10 with 20mm motor cannon to combat fighters.

[bustr]

Found the G6 U4 directive of wiring order with MK108 motor kannon with MG 151\20 gondolas. This would be no different for the G14\G10 configured in the same way.

When the MG 151\20 is both the motor kannon and gondolas G2\G6\G14\G10.

A-Knopf: MG and Motor Kannon
B-Knopf: MG 151\20 Gondola

When the MK108 is the motor cannon with MG 151\20 gondolas, follow this directive:




Went back through the Me410 wiring. The base MG131 and MG151\20 are wired together to be switched on together unless only 2-MG13 or 2-20mm are mounted. They are then fired together from A-Knopf. B-Knopf fires the accessory weapon(s).

Our only Me410 option that is setup correctly is the BK5 which separates the firing of the BK5 from the base package. The 2-20mm, 4-20mm, and 2-Mk103 should be setup to allow the following:

Fire only base package.
Fire only Addon package.
Fire both.
BK5 - only fire base package or only fire BK5.

Lest I forget. the Me110 all models is setup the same way as the Me410. The 2-Mk108 should be controllable with a separate button B-Knopf from the base weapon package MG\cannons A-Knopf.