Why USAF, USN, USMC and others want this F-35?

[GScholz]

My point still stands; you are comparing today's US jets with a Russian pipe dream. The PAK-FA will never be on par with the F-22 in stealth (not even close to the F-35), sensors or weapons. Yes it is cheaper, but that has always been the case with Russian equipment, and it's cheap for a reason.

F-4 vs MiG-21
F-15A vs MiG 25
F-16A vs MiG-23
F-15C vs Su-27A
F-16C vs MiG-29A

What would you rather go to war with as a pilot?

[bozon]

My only real point is, the PAK-FA and F-22 are comparable as fighters, the F-35 is not, which is unsurprisingly since it's designed to be a strike plane.  Nations that buy the F-35 and use it as a frontline fighter are going to be as foolish as those that bought the F-104 and used it for ground attack.

That is a bit of an exaggeration. The F-35 is not such a bad fighter and if used correctly can give a good fight even to F-22 - I mean in a real war environment, not in a duel. If you read my posts above you know I am not exactly a fan of the F-35, but the F-35 is not a pos - it is simply not good enough compared to what could have been achieved for similar or less money in upgrading last generation fighters.

[Stellaris]

@bozon - Well, F-35 has decent sensors and missiles, so in that sense its not a bad fighter.  However in that sense, a SAM battery isn't a bad fighter.  As artik pointed out when he opened this thread, the F-35 has 1970s level thrust loading and even worse wing loading.  You're absolutely right that upgrading the last generation would have given better performance for less money.  Still would, actually. 

@GSholz - Sigh...

[GScholz]

However in that sense, a SAM battery isn't a bad fighter. 

That is perhaps the most moronic thing I've ever read on this bbs...

...the F-35 has 1970s level thrust loading and even worse wing loading.

While carrying three times the internal fuel of a '70s fighter. The F-35 carries more internal fuel than an F-15C and almost as much as an F-15E with conformal fuel tanks. Put an equal amount of fuel in an F-16 and an F-35 and the F-35 will have the better thrust to weight ratio, and lift to weight ratio. You must compare these fighters under equal circumstances, not at max gross weight since none of the legacy fighters it will replace can match it in that regard.

[mthrockmor]

F-22 and F-35 are national security risks due to expense on the taxpayer.

First, we will not be going to war against NATO countries...ever in our lifetime.

Second, realistic 'heavy' threats are really limited to China, which is in fact limited. With 6 months workup the US could sortie 50+ B-52s, 50+ B-1Bs, 12-15 B-2s, 500+ F-16s, 500+ F/A-18s, 250+ F-15Cs and a smattering of other birds. Add to this a few thousand Tomahawks launched from USN cruisers, destroyers and submaries.

If serious engagement happened with China we could destroy the Chinese Pacific forces and gain absolute air superiority in less than 10-days. All of this without the F-22 and F-35. Ten years from now we will see a large contribution by UAVs, of which the USN is fielding the first serious force. The F-22 and F-35 will be leapfrogged by military technology though they will leave our grandchildren half a trillion of debt and interest as a legacy. I think this qualifies as 'white elephant' status.

boo

[GScholz]

The F-35 program is projected to cost $1.3 trillion over the next fifty years. The USA is a 15 trillion Dollar economy, every single year.

[BaDkaRmA158Th]

I dont understand, have any of you people ever heard of the CIA's lockheed A-12?'s

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lockheed_A-12


They had a entire fleet of the gosh danged things,and you and your nations didnt know bullhonkey untill it was released publicly. Why and or HOW you guys can sit back and tell me what my nation and countrymen have or do not have is mind blowing.


With all due respect, sit back... shut up, and watch the sky's.


-edit- I Love Norwegians.



 

[GScholz]

 

[artik]

F-4 vs MiG-21
F-15A vs MiG 25
...
What would you rather go to war with as a pilot?

Small notes:

- F-4 and MiG-21 are quite compatible in terms of performance. For example if I was given a Navy F-4 (without a gun) I think I'd prefer the MiG...
- MiG-25 is not really opponent for F-15, it is fast interceptor that wasn't designed for real combat.

...
F-15C vs Su-27A
F-16C vs MiG-29A

What would you rather go to war with as a pilot?

Actually these are match well.

If you don't believe me, IAF respects them well: http://www.iaf.org.il/5642-35655-en/IAF.aspx

MIG’s abilities equals and sometimes even exceeds those of the F-15 and F-16 jets. The aircraft is highly manoeuvrable, and its engines provide higher weight to thrust ratio. Our pilots must be careful with this aircraft in air combat. Flown by a well trained professional, it is a worthy opponent
...
flying the MIG was one of a kind type of experience for a test pilot. Now I know that the result of an air combat between the MIG and an Israeli fighter jet depends on how the combat develops. In a tight battle, it is a real threat. It’s an advanced aircraft, and in close manoeuvring engagements it is absolutely terrific. It makes sharp turns, it’s quick, and to my opinion, as a platform, it does not fall short of our advanced fighter jets
...
The MIG has an excellent radar system. I was also very impressed with the IRST system. The missile systems provide the jet with significant advantage. I made a good use of the Russian helmet, and I can say that it works fairly well. Having said that, it is less convenient than the Israeli system, and in some ways it falls short of it. Overall it works well

Also note these are written about MiG-29 (which mostly fazed out)... Su-27 is considered more advanced fighter were MiG-29 is the "cheap" one that went for the export - similar to F-16 relatively to F-15

So give them respect. In hands of proper pilots they wouldn't fall or even would be superior over current western technology.

[Rich46yo]

MiG-25 is not really opponent for F-15, it is fast interceptor that wasn't designed for real combat.

And yet the Mig-25 was the motivation for the F-15. Or at least the exuse to get it flying. It was another Russian super-plane, "if your to young to remember the last fighter gap". And the thing turned out to be a total POS. Yes it was fast but that was all about it was good for.

Designed for high Alt interception we simply started flying low, where the MIGs lousy low Alt radar was good for nothing. The Mig-25 wasnt maneuverable and didnt have avionics even close to western specs. Its engines were pretty shoddy and they ended up putting speed restrictions on them. The dang thing was even hand welded.

[mthrockmor]

The Mig-25 was designed to shoot down the B-70 Valkyrie bomber, which was designed to fly at Mach 3 at 70,000 feet.

boo

[GScholz]

Small notes:

- F-4 and MiG-21 are quite compatible in terms of performance. For example if I was given a Navy F-4 (without a gun) I think I'd prefer the MiG...

No they are not quite comparable. The MiG does not have any BVR capability at all and is very limited in range. The F-4 has BVR missiles and the speed to engage or disengage at will and at the range it chooses.

- MiG-25 is not really opponent for F-15, it is fast interceptor that wasn't designed for real combat.

The MiG-25 is the only Soviet heavy fighter worth mentioning from that era.

Actually these are match well.

If you don't believe me, IAF respects them well: http://www.iaf.org.il/5642-35655-en/IAF.aspx

Also note these are written about MiG-29 (which mostly fazed out)... Su-27 is considered more advanced fighter were MiG-29 is the "cheap" one that went for the export - similar to F-16 relatively to F-15

So give them respect. In hands of proper pilots they wouldn't fall or even would be superior over current western technology.

Actually they don't match well. You'll notice I listed the Fulcrum-A, not the S or SE (Fulcrum-C) of the 1990's. We're talking the 1980's here where the MiG-29 didn't have a good radar and didn't have BVR missiles or an ECM system. If we're taking '90s then the F-16 would have to be the Block 52 not the early-C, and again the advantage in sensors and weapons falls to the Viper.

And from your link, and this has always been a problem with Russian aircraft and vehicles: "There is a major disadvantage: difficulty to fully utilize the jet’s abilities. “One of the greatest problems of the MIG is its human engineering”, explains Major N. “Most of the systems installed are good overall, but their combination, and the user interface is cumbersome, and begs for an improvement. On several occasions, I needed a certain piece of information which was not showing on any of the cockpit instruments"."

Btw. the MiG-29 is in no way "fazed out".

[titanic3]

F111 vs Mig 23
Yak-38 vs Harrier

My point still stands; you are comparing today's US jets with a Russian pipe dream. The PAK-FA will never be on par with the F-22 in stealth (not even close to the F-35), sensors or weapons. Yes it is cheaper, but that has always been the case with Russian equipment, and it's cheap for a reason.

F-4 vs MiG-21
F-15A vs MiG 25
F-16A vs MiG-23
F-15C vs Su-27A
F-16C vs MiG-29A

What would you rather go to war with as a pilot?

[artik]

Btw. the MiG-29 is in no way "fazed out".

I know, stupid mistake... They not fazed out, they phased out

...
Yak-38 vs Harrier
...

Wow... you can't even remotely compare them, one was used for a short period, was proven as non-reliable
and lots many-many times. I even hadn't seem a combat. In a single attempt to use them in Afghanistan it was proven
as useless.

On the other hand Harrier is still in service and quite a capable aircraft. It had a good record and even shut down supersonic Mirages in 1982
(ok... Mirages couldn't actually fight because of lack of in-flight refueling, but yet)
 

[GScholz]

I know, stupid mistake... They not fazed out, they phased out

They are neither fazed out, nor phased out. The Russians operate a similar number of both types (Edit: MiG-29 and Su-27). The MiG-29M/MT/SMT is currently in production in Russia and India. Syria has ordered a number of MiG-29M, but Russia won't deliver them until the civil war is over.