Tank Commander Pilot Wounded

[dirtdart]

you don't need the hatches closed to fire a tank...and a tc can be standing in the hatch with binoculars and giving the order to fire...in a battle it is recommended to batten down the hatches but it's not necessary.

if the tc has fire control at his station, nothing stops him from standing up in the commanders hatch and hitting the fire button...

There are no engagements in tank qualification fired with the TC standing out of the hatch. In fact, the SEP V2 you cant even see straight ahead because of the CROW.

So, back on point, first, I can hit a tank that is on the other side of a mild berm from the commanders sight, but not from the gunners. Pretty sure in all tanks, the commander reticles is a mirror of the gunners. Secondly, If you were in a tank battle and in contact, i doubt seriously you would be standing out of the tank. I know of some of some iraq vets that are missing limbs from being out of the hatch in contact. I never stood up in my bradley in contact. We did not have chicken shields either. TC hatch was turtled if anything to keep happy grenade guys out, gunners hatch closed. We could waste the discussion on credibility. The fact is, it is gamey.

A human, exposed to fire in an airplane is susceptible to being wounded. Not the case in GVs. This is a concession to compete with other games? Not sure. In my mind is simply a way to exploit the game. It is very easy to make a template or hash your reticle to make range changes and shoot exclusively from a position where you are situationally aware. For this, my argument is, there should be a risk and a price of failure.

The fix should be a crew approach to the tank. If the player is wounded or killed by aircraft while in the TC view, he loses that position. He then has to drive around in gunners view, since I think the drivers view with the exception of the WW, have all but disappeared a options. If anything it would make fighting GVs a bit more competitive because guys would maybe fight from the gunners view to cut down on the risk of being wounded.

[Schen]

I can think if a handful of personal experiences where the crew commander was half up. Not standing but half up and the commanders cupola  on the leopard 2 is behind the crew commander and gunners aiht recessed in the turret his field of veiw is unrestricted. The commanders were only ever sitting during engagements where the gunners sight and hunter killer sight were employed. At the same time the hatch was still open. I can only think of a handful of times all the hatches were closed. In the event of an ied  having a hole for the concussion to blow out was beneficial. Having hit 2 i can speak to that. As for the game i do not deny a pw be employed in some regard.

[Chalenge]

Well, if you're going to go there then the suggestion I have is to make sure that any commander that is actually hit is wounded, rather than take the commander view removed (or especially assign a wound based on the tank getting hit at all). Otherwise, if you suggest that the commander view be removed, then you are penalizing historical accuracy for what you perceive as gaming-the-game. Besides, just because you do it from the cupola, doesn't mean you couldn't make the same shot from the gunner's spot.

I don't think it should be considered a game-breaking event just because you can shoot over a berm, anyway! The tanks with better sights can shoot over the crest of a hill and kill tanks that have retreated from the edge even at extreme ranges. How many times did a TigerII actually kill something at 7k? 8k? 9k? I think this particular aspect of tanks should be considered a concession of the factors that are not present in the game, but that do actually support such events in the real world (such as a tank used as artillery with forward observers, fire control, etc.).

-1 in any case.

[dirtdart]

Never did I suggest removing the Commander's view, only that there needed to be an element of risk to fight from it. Again, airplane do not have a "no cockpit mode."

[Schen]

I agree with the above.

[WWhiskey]

Some of you may not remember but the reason we drive from the TC position was to speed up the ability to produce tanks,  we used to drive from the drivers seat but it took lots of extra time and resources to build the inside of the tanks,  the trade off was to lose the inside graphics but gain more tanks at a faster pace,, in order to produce the " buttoned down" position,, the insides of the tanks would have to be modeled again,,  the MG turret being knocked out is about as close as you can get to the TC being knocked out,,

[MK-84]

When was that?

I remember hearing about a bug? that allowed a g'ver to receive a pilot wound. It might be based from that, and then translated by rumor.

[dirtdart]

Whiskey, that may be, the point I am making is that the tanks are shooting from points of view that would not have been available. It is the same as being able to see over the nose of a 109 for those slow tater shots. The #2 position allows a place for the "player" to duck and cover.

On the PW, I have been PWd in tanks before, years ago.

[MK-84]

Whiskey, that may be, the point I am making is that the tanks are shooting from points of view that would not have been available. It is the same as being able to see over the nose of a 109 for those slow tater shots. The #2 position allows a place for the "player" to duck and cover.

On the PW, I have been PWd in tanks before, years ago.

But as Whisky also mentioned, it is a gameplay thing.  It would be also unrealistic to only have the main gun sight available for viewing while buttoned up. Some tanks have vision slits cut in them, and some dont, each tank has very different visibilty from one to another.  It is also multi-crewed, with each crew member having a different field of view than the other. I think of it as like F3 in a bomber.  It makes sense for gameplay purposes since I am one person in a vehicle that should have more.

[WWhiskey]

Whiskey, that may be, the point I am making is that the tanks are shooting from points of view that would not have been available. It is the same as being able to see over the nose of a 109 for those slow tater shots. The #2 position allows a place for the "player" to duck and cover.

On the PW, I have been PWd in tanks before, years ago.

what we don't have is the infantry on the ground around the tank either, or the ability to recon from outside the tank by the crew,,I think those disadvantages are a far greater loss than the extra view we do have.  Just my opinion tho !

[dirtdart]

And thanks for it  . All valid points. My suggestion stems from guys exploiting the view to shoot from positions where the actual gunsight is masked by a berm, but the commanders view is not. It allows them to shoot from better cover and remain more concealed. I wish there were a work around.

[MK-84]

And thanks for it  . All valid points. My suggestion stems from guys exploiting the view to shoot from positions where the actual gunsight is masked by a berm, but the commanders view is not. It allows them to shoot from better cover and remain more concealed. I wish there were a work around.

There is no exploiting!!!!  Your enemy enjoys the exact same thing you do!!!
It is something I really enjoy.
I get to guess, and dial in my shot
I have to consider the ballistics of my adversary.  A T34/85 shooting HVAP might not arc nearly as much as as an M4/75
I can "hunt"  Knowing I can see them, but they can not see me is great fun as I try to approach for an attack.
If you feel there is an exploit feel free to close your eyes when your tank is parked on a hill overlooking the enemy.  (I would call that a tactic)

[Aspen]

I was pilot (driver) wounded in a Jeep a few days ago.  First for me.

[dirtdart]

There is no exploiting!!!!  Your enemy enjoys the exact same thing you do!!!
It is something I really enjoy.
I get to guess, and dial in my shot
I have to consider the ballistics of my adversary.  A T34/85 shooting HVAP might not arc nearly as much as as an M4/75
I can "hunt"  Knowing I can see them, but they can not see me is great fun as I try to approach for an attack.
If you feel there is an exploit feel free to close your eyes when your tank is parked on a hill overlooking the enemy.  (I would call that a tactic)

Well, instead of dialing ... lol, make and overlay set to a specific zoom setting, viola, no need to go to gunners position.

Again, thanks for the feedback guys, I enjoy the civil discussion. <S>

[TDeacon]

I would like to see the tank commander able to be pilot wounded (like the old days).

If for example you are shooting from the commanders view and you are hit, you should be spalled just like a real person. That commander's view gives you an unfair advantage because you have a gunsight that is above the tanks real gunsight. It is the equivalent of flying with no cockpit IMHO. <snip>

How is this an unfair advantage?  All GVs have this capability, don't they, so all should be equal in this respect.  Furthermore, as has been alluded to above, this could be considered to cover the situation where the TC gets out and reconnoiters (spelling?).  Finally, I don't think you can hit anything from the TC position that you can't hit from the gunner's position, and from the former you risk hitting the hill in front of you, wasting the shot, giving away your position, and creating a large crater terrain effect blocking your LOS. 

If you are claiming that GVs have an unfair advantage against aircraft ...  

MH